Anna Serner

Get to know the Chief Executive of the Swedish Film Institute and powerhouse of the gender equality in film movement, Anna Serner. Listen as she explains how she devised a plan to make waves and make change within the Swedish film industry and those waves are making their way to Hollywood as well.

Anna Serner on Gender Equality in Film

The Backlot Podcast: Anna Serner

  • Anna Serner Introduction & Background
  • Boston Symphony Orchestra Gender Study
  • Gender Inequality in Film
  • What it Means to be a Troublemaker
  • Nordic Women in Film
  • Don’t Kill Dreams of Being Female Filmmakers
  • Lying for a Good Cause
  • Homosociality in Film
  • 50/50 by 2020
  • Conclusion & Goodbye

Anna Serner Introduction & Background

 

Eric: Hi and welcome to The Backlot, a discussion with the entertainment industry’s top talent. I’m Eric Conner.

Aerial: And I’m Aeriel Segard and recently we were fortunate enough to have Anna Serner come and speak with our students. She is the chief executive of the Swedish film institute

Eric: and instead of just focusing on her time as an executive or a financier, Ms. Serner discussed her experiences dealing with gender inequality in the entertainment industry.

Aerial: An all too timely topic. And we’re taking her lead by focusing this episode on this exact subject. This episode’s going to be a little bit different. Instead of coming in and doing a Q & A for our students she actually did a lecture. So we’re going to take pieces of her lecture and talk about them as we go.

Eric: Before she was an entertainment maverick she was actually an entertainment lawyer. And then once she got her position with the Swedish Film Institute she made a strong choice about where to focus her energy.

Aerial: Which was to help ensure that female filmmakers get the same opportunities as their male counterparts. Which was great because all over the world different film entities started taking her lead on that,

Eric: but being one of the first on that hill made for a very difficult battle.

Anna Serner: I was working as the lawyer at the Swedish Advertising Association and then I got appointed to be the CEO. And I learned from my predecessor who left the job and he said when I got appointed he said you know maybe this will work you’re a bit of a captain girl but I can tell you never talk about gender inequality because you know you will just be considered a whining bitch if you do that. And I said wise as I was, “Oh yes, I won’t.” And I realized already from the beginning that that won’t happen because I realized as well that life isn’t really fair. And the gender inequality isn’t really justice and I knew that already from the beginning ,but it’s not that the men aren’t good it’s just that they don’t even have to perform as well as women do and that is a knowledge that if you know that you can actually have another strategy and want to say from the beginning this is not against men. It’s just for us all to understand that we are sort of all in the same race. And what really matters for you guys is quality. Right? You want to be the best cinematographer you want to be the best screenwriter. You don’t want to be a male screenwriter or a female screenwriter. You just want to do your profession.

Aerial: Ms. Serner reminded her students that equality actually begins the hiring process that everyone should be on the same footing. At the get-go

Eric: even if that means you got to use carpeting to ensure the footing’s the exact same it will make sense in a moment, I promise.

Boston Symphony Orchestra Gender Study

Anna Serner: I just want to share it with you so you understand really what it’s all about is a research that was made in Boston. This was in the end of 1990s and the Boston Symphony Orchestra which was very white and male, they wanted to change that so they wanted female musicians so what they did they made the audition and anonymously. So the musicians came in onstage behind a curtain and the jury was sitting like you and the musicians came in and they played their little part whatever it was. And they went out again one by one and then, in the end, the jury picked the best and they picked more men which was very disappointing for everyone. And you can always try to find arguments of why is that happening. In Gender Research there are always two kinds of answers the one answer is the biological that men actually are more biologically prepared to do things, like running, for instance. But in this case, it would be like – do the men have another DNA so they have a more musical sense? Or you can have the social construction answer which means that women don’t get to practice as much because they take care of the family and they go home and they take care of children. That would be very logical because then they don’t get to practice as much as the men and they won’t be as good as the men. But before doing that the Boston Symphony Orchestra did the audition once again. So they made the musician walk in once again this time they put a thick carpet on the floor and the musicians came in. The same musicians they played the same songs. And this time the jury picked 50/50 because they couldn’t hear the steps so they couldn’t determine what kind of expectations they were having. So for the first time they weren’t biased, for the first time they actually listened to the music, and suddenly the quality was not within a gender the quality was within the individuals.

Aerial: So it’s almost like the show The Voice. Right?

Eric: Except if you wear high heels. The judges won’t even turn their chairs.

Aerial: That’s right. But see the battle for equality doesn’t stop right there. I mean even if you get past the heels on the floor stage you still have to battle it once you get hired.

Eric: Which Ms. Serner explained to our students like when they get out of film school and they’re looking to break into their respective industries.

Gender Inequality in Film

Anna Serner: In many film schools the students that are admitted it’s 50/50 but then they come out and suddenly they aren’t good enough. So for me, that is just not okay. And I realized that I had to do something about that when I was appointed the CEO of the Swedish Advertising Association, I was called up by a reporter of the trade press in Sweden of advertisement and he had got hold of our survey of payments. In the survey you could easily read that women earned less than the men on similar positions – in the same cities whatever similar positions less pay. So he called me up and I had had no media training by that time so I answered him very honestly, because he asked me, “So Anna, what do you say about this?” I said, “Yeah you know that’s really s****y. But that is life. That’s how it is all over the place.” It’s not like only the advertising business and then we had a good talk for half an hour and I thought, “wow! I really taught him a lot about life!” And being a woman and I didn’t realize what I was doing. But then I came back two days later I could see the front page of all this papers. It was a big picture of me with the headline “it’s s****y says Anna Serner” so my chairman called me up and he was like, “Well, that wasn’t a very good idea Anna.” And I was like, “Yeah. But you know I didn’t know.” But that made me the spokesperson for these issues because first of all there are not a lot of women in leading positions. And secondly, they never talk about gender equality. Well, they never used to anyways. So I was kind of the first one that actually talked about it, and being the only one, I’m getting all the calls I got really tired of talking and talking and nothing of course happened. So I decided to stop talk and start do. So we could at least try something, and then we can talk about what we are doing and maybe it leads to change. And if it doesn’t, we didn’t lose anything more than my job which I realized that that could be the case.

Eric: Ms. Serner appreciates that it was this gender inequality that might have actually gotten her job in the first place.

Aerial: Even if her male coworker didn’t want to admit it.

Anna Serner: You know, as well as being a woman of course, in a position of being the association person it’s usually men that have done their career and then they are sort of kicked aside because they’re getting too old and then they become the association’s CEO. So picking me a young woman of course it was because I had a law degree. I knew something that they didn’t but I was a woman. So that was, of course, a PR trick which I realized and I told my chairman so I realize why you pick me, of course, is because I’m really great about as well because I’m a woman. “Oh no we would never do that. No quota Anna.” But then, of course, he was lying because there was one woman in the board. I asked her and she said, “yeah, of course, that’s a good PR trick.” So of course, I was and that’s totally okay for me to be that way. But then when I was going into my other jobs I actually told my chairman if you don’t want me to talk about gender equality then you shouldn’t appoint me because I will never stop doing that. So I got appointed anyways to the two jobs I’ve had both times the chairman have always male chairman they said yeah Anna you keep on doing. It’s fine because they didn’t realize what that doing was because I can tell you there’s always a lot of fuss around that doing so much fuss that I actually got appointed. This is a Swedish expression so it’s pretty hard to translate. But more or less “2011 most troublemaker – female troublemaker in Sweden” and that was supposed to be a compliment because being a troublemaker that means that you are innovative and you’re creative you are doing smart things. But for me it has been both a burden and something people google up. So they’re like oh you’re a troublemaker Anna. No no no you know that was just a title.

What it Means to be a Troublemaker

Eric: In this country, a troublemaker isn’t necessarily viewed as a compliment.

Aerial: Well, Anna Serner seems to wear it like a badge of honor. Even when she tries to keep her feelings and motivations under wraps her inner troublemaker sometimes rears its head.

Anna Serner: Having been the spokesperson I needed to keep on speaking and I realize this is no different from other worlds. I just need to keep on doing and not only talking but I just didn’t realize what to do actually because you don’t know a business so you really don’t know where – where are the glass ceilings and what are the obstacles. I had a pretty good idea what I wanted to do but I felt to not be the troublemaker. Stay a little bit calm here Anna and shut your mouth for a while. So I said I will do that shut my mouth for six months and learn the business. But it took me like six weeks to realize it was exactly the same thing because then I went to Amsterdam where the world’s greatest international documentary film festival is where you pitch for money. There were like 40 financers and we are there to listen to see what’s in pipeline and what will come in a couple of years and how you do it. You get 15 minutes each. It’s five minutes presentation, five minutes showing some screens, and five minutes questions Q&A. So, when I was sitting there and the first day no woman at all which I thought was a little bit weird. And everyone said around me, “yeah, but you know that’s how it is.” But then the second day, things started to change. And what happened first was very interesting. It was a Finnish guy and I don’t know if you know Finnish people but they aren’t the best in English. He came up and it was just I didn’t get anything. And then the question time was and I was like What are they going to ask for questions and actually the first guy raising his hand. And actually it was Nick Fraser from BBC who is the most important financer. So this guy raises his hand he said, “I didn’t get anything” and everyone was like yeah and you realize. No one did, but then he said, “but I know you and you made your last film and that was great. So, of course, I trust you. So I’m in.” And then the other started raising their hands and they were in too it’s the followers coming along. And then the next presentation was the first female presentation it was a female Chilean film director with her female producer. She was so well prepared. I mean she is like any other women and she had, as well, like the Finnish guy had made one very successful documentary before traveling around the world. So that was exactly the same. But she really came up and she made this fantastic presentation about the film she was making about her grandmother in Chile. So she described these characters that have some have lost their husbands in the revolution and one was very Catholic and had a lot of children one was very promiscuous no children. And you know she had a lot of description that was fantastic and it was just know, five minutes. And then the question time was and it was totally silent. And I thought that was the best project for the whole two days but no questions first and then this guy raises his hand and he said, “What is this film about?” – “What is this film about? This is about Chile going from dictatorship to democracy. This is about a lot of people’s family life.” You know what is this film about. And then he said, “well, you know you have only made one film before. Why should I trust you? I’m not in.” She didn’t get any money and that is actually exactly what happens that men are picked for their potential. And women of their experience, and in this case both had exactly the same experience and exactly as successful, but the man was picked because you had the trust. So I was so upset that I went back home. This was in November and in January we had a presentation of that year’s premieres of Swedish films on cinema and I was called up by the media this time a little bit more media trained and the public service radio comes to me. “So what do you say Anna Serner?” And this time I was like, “I say it’s a catastrophe!” The next day – headline – big picture Anna Serner – “it’s a catastrophe says Anna Serner.” And I got the message out which was exactly what I wanted

Aerial: Ms. Serner and her team created this database of women in film. It was supposed to be a joint effort with other Nordic countries but when it came down to it it was really only the Swedish Film Institute that was on board.

Nordic Women in Film

Anna Serner: So we launched a website which is Nordic Women in Film dot com where we searched for every female filmmaker since film started 1895. It’s 700 of them. It’s the cinematographer’s Screenwriters Editors directors and producers that we have been able to find. It was supposed to be a Nordic joint venture and the other Nordic friends of mine they all withdrew and said No it’s not a priority for us any longer. So now it’s a Nordic Women in Film but it’s really only Swedish. But we believe that with the attention this gets they won’t be able to stay out of it too long. When we launched it last weekend we filled the houses. We have two cinemas one is with 360 seats and the other one 120. We had to open up both of them and stream. What happened on stage because it was such an interest because suddenly things have become hot.

Aerial: Film execs are not often treated like celebrities like Beyonce say or Adele. But the more Anna Serner’s cause was reaching the public the more her life has been transformed.

Eric: And if Meryl Streep knows who you are, you’re doing something right.

Anna Serner: Walking on the streets in Cannes as I’ve been the troublemaker I’m sort of used to you know the bitch comes along and suddenly this woman comes up to me in the street and she says, “Do you want to take a selfie?” And I was like, “why would I want to take a selfie?” “Because you’re Anna Serner.” I had become a rockstar. And I was like why is this another guy. He said to a woman who is the producer of Timbuktu a beautiful film. But he says to her hey you have to come and meet Anna Serner. And I was like, “When did this happen?” And then I realized it happened last year in the Oscars when Cate Blanchett went up and started talking about how it is being a woman and then Emma Watson and Meryl Streep and Gina Davis been working for a long time. And I got an email from Meryl Streep last week, “I’m so sorry. Anna I just can’t show up. We’re have having a seminar.” Like I’m getting a mail from Meryl Streep because what happened was when these red carpet people started talking media attention, of course, got very alert and they were like, “oh s**t! This is s****y probably!” But isn’t there anywhere in the world where things has happened and they said “Oh yeah! In Sweden there’s an Anna Serner. Let’s talk to her.” So suddenly that’s my life now go in like in film festivals. The applause for me is like it’s almost embarrassing but it’s really because we’re the only ones that have been able to do things and it’s of course very exciting but as well kind of demanding of course because we’re being the role models but that’s as well why I’m here because I like that we can show that you can do things. It’s worthwhile working for it.

Eric: A recent social media trend has been female filmmaker Friday directors DPs etc. have been posting pictures of themselves on set as a reminder that the best way to encourage others to dream of being a filmmaker is showing examples that it’s actually not just a dream.

Aerial: And this has been one of Ms. Serner’s tenets. She stressed that one of the biggest obstacles facing female filmmakers is how others react to their dreams of becoming filmmakers and why men are never asked. What about your children?

Don’t Kill Dreams of Being Female Filmmakers

Anna Serner: We all know young women have as many dreams as young men. Something happened during the way. So what we did we did studies in pre-film schools and on-film schools. And it turned out that the women used to want to become film directors but when they said so the reaction from their surrounding was, “you want to become a film director? Are you sure? You know how competitive it is. It’s so hard. And how are you going to combine it with a family? And you know you will have to work day and night for months and you will not be able to have children blah blah blah blah blah blah.” While when a young man says the same thing the reaction is, “wow! You want to become a film director? Are you sure? It’s really competitive, but what the hell, you can do it. What do you have to lose? Just go out there. You’re talented, you’re good.” So if you get to hear that all the time, of course the young women they didn’t even think there was an opportunity or possibility for them to become film directors so pragmatic as you are. They just decided to do something else like me. I skipped the film business and went into law school because I realized I won’t be able to do films while the men they just get to hear. “You are great go do it.” And that’s why I really want to encourage the women to realize that you have exactly the same competence. But producers come to me male and female producers come to me and they say you know Anna it’s only young men coming up showing their portfolios. They knock on my door and I never met them and they are so courageous and they really want and never women do. And it’s like yeah that’s probably true. But if you want the best films you should probably still start looking for the women and not be so lazy sitting and waiting for them because otherwise, you won’t get the best ones because otherwise, you will just have to get the ones that actually had the possibility to move their legs and that’s not good enough. Then then the producer gets really mad with me actually. But that’s the truth.

Aerial: One of the reasons why change can be so slow. Because those with power are not so keen about letting them power go.

Anna Serner: Those in power have no desire to see change. In Sweden, and I would say, the rest of the Western world that used to be white men some white women as well. No one of those wants to see change because they know or really. They knew how business was run. They knew how to get our money. And suddenly they don’t know it any longer. So those ones, they are not very happy with me. Then within the other ones it’s the men who are few geniuses and they they love what I’m doing and they’re like, “Yeah Anna, you keep on doing.” Because they know it will never affect them because they believe that they will still get the money. And so far they will. But they will have to really perform. Every time

Eric: Ironically during the earliest days of cinema there were several powerful women behind the scenes. But that was before movies became a multi-billion dollar global empire.

Lying for a Good Cause

Anna Serner: In the beginning of the film’s history, the men were doing the camera and the lightning and the women were doing that soft people stuff directing and writing and when they started was the women doing directing. So we all learn that the first narrative feature film was made by Griffith, “Birth of a Nation,” which is not true. It was Lois Webber. She was a woman. She’s made a hundred narratives. Nobody knows about her. The thing changed when the money came into the business when the East Coast capitalists came in, then the women were out from directing because suddenly you realized who’s the boss here. It’s not the lightning guy. So then women were really in majority before that which is so interesting. And now they’re carrying very heavy but still close because that’s so soft.

Aerial: Ms. Serner realized that she needed to directly educate people about this troubling trend in gender equality. So she found a sly way of hooking a potential disinterested crowd by lying.

Eric: Well, maybe we should put a disclaimer here. Lying is usually bad.

Aerial: I mean if you’re going to lie. Might as well lie well and for good cause.

Eric: the results of her lie are undeniable. By the way, this story she tells it may be a little long but it is worth it.

Anna Serner: In Sweden we have at one week a year in the summertime. All politicians all important people in NGOs or other organizations go to a small island and they are together for a week giving each other’s seminars. So there are like 3,500 seminars for free during one week to 10,000 people.

So if you are unlucky you get three persons. But if you don’t tell them it’s about gender equality you may get more. Because what I always know is that usually it’s like 80-90% women and they are always the women that already knows what I’m talking about and they are the one that wants this. So it’s not that I’m changing the world when I speak to them. So, I decided to lie. And my organization, they are very sincere. “Anna we have to tell people what they will go to see!” And I said, “no, because if we do that they won’t come.” So we invited people to come to see commercials during history. That meant we needed political actions. So that’s what we named it and we did pick out commercials and in Sweden. You may think we’re crazy but people love good commercials. So we always fill our theaters when we show commercials. So I knew we would fill a house. It was packed. 350 people. Every seat was taken and we showed commercials from the 1910s 20s 30s and always with a woman as they always were, and unfortunately still very often are, an objectified woman: either really stupid or really pretty and sexy or whatever, but not a protagonist really.

So the first commercial everyone was very happy and they were applauding and everything was great. And then the third commercial, you could sense that they knew this is fishy. People were like, “yeah what is this?” And then I went up on stage and I said, “I’m sorry. This is a coup and you’re taken hostage because if I had told you, you wouldn’t have been here and we can all agree that this doesn’t work.” And everyone was like, “no it doesn’t work.” Yeah, so OK – So we decided at the Swedish Film Institute we decided to change things so we made an action plan. We all know if you want to do changes you have to set a target. You have to choose a strategy. You have to have a budget and you have to have some time. And that’s how you do change in any matters. So this is how we do change. And then I talked about it and then I said so let’s hear what are you guys doing. They didn’t do anything. Of course they were all talking. Yeah we are talking about this we’re doing this study but they’re not really doing things.

And then I had some male friends. They were really mad with me coming after us, “I would have come Anna!” – “Well, would you really?” – “No maybe not.” But the good thing was this will get out and get spread but I didn’t realize how much it would because the news got hold of it and really the coup rather than the gender equality plan but the coup was named the hottest media coup in this place. So all the media – it was spread in all Swedish newspaper and the next day. So from July 3rd 2012 no one could escape that the Swedish Film Institute wanted to make change. And suddenly because here they said, “but there aren’t any competent female directors and they don’t apply.” Well yeah, if you have no expectation to get money why bother applying. But suddenly everyone realized you have expectations and it’s actually possible. So suddenly the increase of application with women in them was enormous.

So in 2013 we funded 35 percent female directors and then 2014 we funded 50 percent in 2015 thirty eight percent which aggregates to 44 percent which I think is pretty okay. And still the private sector 14 percent, in Hollywood I think it’s 8 percent female directors. So I mean we’re a little bit better not much producers though that’s the next female occupation. So the salaries will go down. No. We hope not. But this is really what happened. And then the interesting thing is did we lose quality? and I wouldn’t say that if I didn’t know the answer of course. So this is what happened. These are the effects. For narrative, 60 percent of all awards in our Oscar Award were handed out to women directing, screenwriting, or producing; 40 percent of all awards in the six top international film festival. And you know that just getting selected is very hard. We could get the statistics going our side by picking festivals. You know there are 10,000 festivals all over the place. Those ones aren’t hard to get into. It’s – you have to measure the top ones. So this is Berlinale, Cannes, Toronto, Venice, Sundance, and IDFA. And women got 40 percent of all the awards in those Berlinale. 2015 we had seven films, 71 percent were women. And there was – we had a joint thing with Canada, Sweden, Norway, and Finland I think and we made a selection of seven short films. Sweden got almost half of those three. They were all women and I’m sure that the biology of the Swedish women aren’t different from the other countries. It’s just that their funding system is not appreciating or finding quality.

 Eric: Another reason change can be slow is that people in charge will oftentimes replace themselves with people just like themselves. So an older man replaces himself with just a younger man and so on and so on.

Homosociality in Film

Anna Serner: What the men are doing is called homosociality which means that they relate to each other and they are the same so they sort of fall in love with each other and they pick their crown prince and there’s really a lot of studies regarding that. So it’s a fact. And the women of course realize that there’s the power. So women get heterosocialized they try to find the power with a man and some women’s strategy for that is pretending they are men. There are a lot of pretended men out there and I don’t know about here but in Sweden the women in leading positions they never talk about gender equality because they say, “there is no problem. Look at me! It went well for me.” And they just forgot that they were 4 percent. And Sweden is much worse in leading positions in the corporate business. There we have 4 percent women in leading positions in the top 200 companies. Which is crazy. And we have the maternity leave which is great that we get 18 months and 12 months of them are paid. But it means that women fall out of the system. So what we need to realize and get to know for me it has been really really helpful. As a woman to learn about how the structure is because then you can have a strategy. There are different kinds of how women are supposed we are the Iron Ladies. I’m usually – Yeah – “You are so hard Anna.” I am more of the Thatcher woman and then you have the mascot who is the cute girl who is always you know working like that. So we can as women realize that that is the roles we get and then we can play along but under control and then to realize that we will never be a man even though we are in those rooms where we are never men. And I think that men. It’s not like they are aware of what they’re doing. It’s just the way that they are brought up as well so they need of course education.

Aerial: Ms. Serner is not slowing down in her ambitions pushing for full equality within two years.

50/50 by 2020

Anna Serner: There’s women in film and television in Sweden, they just made a survey of the films that have premiered in 2014 to see what changes or differences there were. And it was obvious that when it was female directors that was – there were more usual that they were they all passed the Bechtel test – but then there were a female cinematographer and the whole crew went more gender equal. So in our next Gender Action Plan – our new tagline which is very catchy we think – it’s 50/50 by 2020. That means 50/50 behind the camera and 50/50 in front of the camera because. They go together.

Aerial: The past year has seen massive shifts in Hollywood from the #MeToo movement to the record-setting opening of Black Panther.

Eric: Diversity of storytellers also brings with it a diversity of stories and the audience is there. Just ask the Justice League who as a team made 150 million dollars less than Wonder Woman did all by herself.

Aerial: It’s giving storytellers the chance without premeditated assumptions about who they are and what their stories may be. And Hollywood could use a lot more troublemakers like Anna Serner. We want to thank her for talking so passionately with her students.

Conclusion & Goodbye

Eric: And we want to thank all of you for so passionately listening. This episode was written by me Eric Conner based on the lecture given by Anna Serner

Aerial: this episode was hosted with me Aeriel Segard edited it and mixed by Kristian Hayden

Eric: our creative director is David Andrew Nelson who also produced this episode with Kristian Hayden and myself executive produced by Tova Laiter. Jean Sherlock and Dan Mackler.

Aerial: Special thanks to our events department Sajja Johnson and the staff and crew who made this possible to learn more about our programs. Check us out at nyfa.edu.

Eric: Be sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen see you next time.

Actor Henry Winkler

We sit down with the actor, director, and producer Henry Winkler in this New York Film Academy podcast episode. Get to know Henry Winkler who is best known for his role on Happy Days as The Fonze.

Henry Winkler on “The Fonz”

The Backlot Podcast: Henry Winkler

  • Henry Winkler
  • An Acting Career
  • Fonz in Happy Days
  • Henry Winkler a Director
  • Earn the Trust of Your Cast and Crew
  • Winkler’s Dynamic Career
  • Conclusion & Goodbye

Henry Winkler

Eric: Hi and welcome to the backlot discussion with the entertainment industry’s top talent. I’m Eric Conner, and at long last, I am no longer alone in this recording booth.

Aeriel: Hi I’m Aeriel Segard a graduate of the acting program and a coordinator here at the New York Film Academy and I’m beyond excited for this episode about the one and only Henry Winkler.

— My place 10 o’clock be there.

Until we get all the facts, don’t say anything that can incriminate you or me just try to keep me out of this.

You talk too much. I will give you a quarter if you just stop talking.

I would let him go unless you want to make medical history.

I just had the best Italian meal I’ve ever had in my life and I’ve been to Dallas. —

Aeriel: Eric is so excited he’s literally playing with an action figure of the Fonz. You realize that no one can see your Barbie doll.

Eric: First of all he’s not a Barbie doll it’s a vintage Fonz figure and he gives me strength because he’s the Fonz. By the way, this wasn’t even the only time Henry Winkler spoke at our school. He gave an incredibly funny and uplifting speech at graduation and then I had to go on stage and talk after him. Not easy.

Aeriel: Well, I’m sure you did fine. If you don’t know who the Fonz is from Happy Days your parents didn’t raise you right.

Eric: But we’re here to help you learn. Henry Winkler’s acting career actually spanned decades.

Aeriel: He’s brilliant as Barry Zuckercorn, the world’s worst attorney on Arrested Development.

Eric: Also, there’s. Parks and Rec, A whole bunch of Adam Sandler films and Ron Howard’s night shift he’s directed features he’s directed for TV.

Aeriel: And produced tons of shows including MacGyver. But before Henry Winkler did any of this he trained and worked like a madman to get into auditions.

An Acting Career

Henry Winkler: Acting is not acting. Acting is reacting. Acting is just being. It takes a long time to just be to trust. When I did plays in college I had two costumes for the same part because I sweat so much because I was so nervous because I wanted to be perfect. That at the intermission I had to change costumes. I now only have one costume. You know it is a metaphor but it is so true. There is no perfection. There is no right. There is no wrong when you go into audition. You cannot be right. You can fill that time and space the way you imagine it. And let the chips fall where they may. I’m so dyslexic it was hard for me to read the script and act at the same time. I would improvise. The director or the producer said, “excuse me that’s not the way it’s written.” I said, “that’s because I’m giving you the essence of the character but here it is.” It works. You go in and you be your imagination. You cannot know what they want because they don’t know what they want when you walk in that room they’re not always sure what they want. So you tell them what they want and if they don’t want you then you say, “that’s okay I’m so happy to meet you. I’m going to go down the street and I’m going to work for them. And if I don’t work for them I’m going to go over there I’m going to work for them.”

And that kind of energy is going to get you work. You know what. Here it is. It’s hard. It was hard then. It’s hard now it’s hard. So it is what it is. So if you’re going to play the game if you’re going to do it you play the cards that are dealt you they’re looking for somebody or they wouldn’t have an audition. You know what I mean. There’s no definition. There’s you in the room. That’s all there is. And how do you get in the room? I don’t know. You figure that out. You don’t stop until. You get in the f**king room.

Aeriel: OK. I’m inspired. Earlier in his career, Mr. Winkler stuck to the old Shakespearean quote “to thine own self be true.” Even if that meant carrying your things in a paper bag.

Henry Winkler: It is good to know what to do. It is good to know what not to do. Don’t be rude. Everything else is up for grabs. You know I brought with me from New York my portfolio. My pictures, that I had of the plays that I did and I had them in a little plastic album and I didn’t have a leather case and I put them in a Ralph’s brown paper bag and people said you can’t do that. I said why not. I don’t why you can’t do that you got to present yourself. Well, the fact is that the brown paper bag became a topic of conversation.

It opened the conversation and I realized everybody is going to tell you what not to do. Everybody is going to tell you what to do. I will go back to where I began. You know what to do if your instinct is saying wow I shouldn’t do that. Don’t if it’s saying I really feel like I got to go for the gold. I’ve got to try this do it. You’re going to get the part you’re not going to get the part. What you have to lose?!

Eric: Eventually Mr. Winkler landed what was initially a small role in Happy Days.

— I’m going to save you for last and what we’re going to do we’re going to do alone so sit down.

Give me a good reason to beat your brains in.

Get out of here slimeball. —

Eric: And that was the game-changing moment of his career even if it sort of disappointed his parents.

Fonz in Happy Days

Henry Winkler: My parents were very very very very very very very very short, German Jews. They had just called me to say they were taking my sister. And “what’s his name” and me on a trip to Europe. Because they did not know how long they were going to be around. That was 1973. And I was in my apartment and on Laurel Avenue and I got a call from the producers and they said, “would you like to play this character?” And I said, “OK!” And then I called my parents and I said, “I don’t think I can come on this trip. My career is starting I just got a small part on a series in Hollywood.”

My mother said, “oh this is nice here tell your father.” When the show became popular and the Fonz took off all of a sudden my parents were lobbyists. They sat in the lobby of hotels in Miami. “Yeah, we’re the Fonz’s parents.” I’ve met people all over the world who said, “hey! I’ve got your parents autograph.”

Aeriel: Director Garry Marshall was actually looking for a tall hunky Italian man. Not exactly the picture of Henry Winkler but he killed the audition.

Henry Winkler: I wanted to be an actor since I was 7. I ate through brick in order to get my dream. I wanted to do what I did. “If you will it, it is not a dream.” Phrase said first in 1946 at the birth of Israel. But the fact of the matter is what I have realized over my life if you will it, it is not a dream, is the deal. It is not just a beautiful needle pointed pillow if you know what you want and you never let it out of the forefront of your brain. You put one foot in front of the other. You train yourself the best you can. You prepare yourself the best you can for what it is you want to do you will end up at your destination. I was told that I would never achieve. I was told that I was stupid I was lazy. I was not living up to my potential. So when I got the Fonz and it grew into ten years and I lived that extraordinary experience I lived my dream. I willed it. I did not know what I wanted to do after. And I want to tell you if you don’t know what it is you want it is painful when you are rudderless.

It is painful. And then you just have to take a moment and really decide what you want. Write it in red and put it up on your mirror that you brush your hair in front of every day. And that you walk toward with every action you brush your teeth with what you want, you eat your breakfast with what you want, you stay healthy with what you want. I’m not kidding. If you don’t know what you want, stop for a moment, make that decision and you will be shocked how you will shoot like a rocket in that direction.

Eric: To say the Fonz took over the universe barely covers. I mean he was bigger than The Avengers and The Transformers combined. He was everywhere. Lunchboxes, t-shirts –

Aeriel:  – action figures-

Eric: Yes, and action figures. He even had his own cartoon set in space for some reason.

–We got it all together now gang. The Fonz! Oh, now gang got zapped into that time machine and they’re like, traveling. They do not dig where that machine is going, but they sure hope to get back to 1957 Milwaukee. – Can you dig it? – Yeah! —

Aeriel: The Fonz used to just smack the jukebox to make a song play his directing career started almost as quickly.

Henry Winkler a Director

Henry Winkler: So I’m on the Paramount lot. We’re doing Happy Days. It’s toward the end. They’re doing a show called “Joanie Loves Chachi.” They couldn’t find a director for the 13th episode. I walked up to the producers the producers were really nervous and they were trying to figure this out and I said, “hey, I’ll do it.” They went, “ok!” I went, “I’m just joking.” I said, “no, OK!” And that’s how I became a director. I didn’t know much about the camera because I’m very dyslexic so I have no idea what that line is. Everybody talks about crossing well I’ll tell you.

I have no idea. But there’s always somebody who is great to help you do what you don’t know. So you bring what you do know to the party. And slowly but surely you listen and you are the final word. You have to take responsibility for your choices as an actor as a producer, as a director, as a writer, because the fact of the matter is if you listen to everybody else and you ultimately do what they’re telling you and you go down you’re going to say, “oh my god! I went against my instinct and it turned to mush.” If you go down and you go down in your own flames dust myself off and I move on.

Eric: Keep in mind he had a lot of mileage as a performer that made him ready to direct.

Aeriel: Yeah lots of directors know how to film. But some of them focus more on their lights than their actors. Mr. Winkler’s experience in TV made him the right guy for Memories of Me it’s a bittersweet comedy with Billy Crystal and the late Alan King.

Henry Winkler: I was an actor first I didn’t know that I was going to direct everything that I learned as an actor. I used as a director. Every time I was on the set I watched everything and you ask questions and the crew will just be so happy to tell you why they’re doing anything. But there are a lot of people who are great with the camera who cannot talk to actors who cannot get performances.

When you study acting even if you don’t want to be an actor you learn what it is how difficult it is to take the word and transform it into a living walking breathing human being. You then know the process and you can communicate so much better with your actors. What I also learned is 70 percent of your work as a director is casting. So you will be very careful and you will know in the same way that you know when you meet the right boy or right girl you get that feeling in your stomach you will get that feeling in your stomach when the right actor walks in the door or actress and they just own the part you’ll know it. Do not go against your instinct. Your inner voice your instinct knows everything.

Eric: Mr. Winkler also stressed that trusting your casting director and really just being decent with people helps with work tremendously.

Henry Winkler: Even if I don’t use an actor I keep their picture because you never know and because you want to use them but it’s just not right for this film. The casting director – you have to really depend on their taste. They have to know who is out there. They have to feel the process as powerfully as anybody else on that movie because they’re bringing you in you’re seeing these people and people are coming. And also let me just say that it’s really lovely to be lovely. You know? I don’t know that a film is better because someone yelled at everybody. I don’t know if that’s like a great method. There are actors that have come back to me that said, “I’d rather be said no to by you just because you treated me like a human being.”

There is no reason why you have to be anything other than that treat people the way you want to be treated.

Eric: Being a leader on set isn’t about screaming the loudest or acting like a megalomaniac.

Aeriel: Wow, that’s a really big word for you, Eric.

Eric: I even had a look up how to spell it.

Aeriel: It’s about trusting your own instincts and the crew around you.

Earn the Trust of Your Cast and Crew

Henry Winkler: OK here it is who you are. Will earn the trust of the cast and the crew. You never know where a great idea is going to come from and if you love your crew they will die for you. If you respect them and if the costume designer comes and says, “So I was thinking of a teal,” and if it doesn’t go against your aesthetic grain you say, “oh my God what a brilliant idea!” And you invest every one of that crew with your trust and you will get it back. The fact of the matter is I truly believe that the center of the relationship between you and the world is not your mind. It is not your heart. It is your ear. It is the way you hear what is being said to you and I’m telling you if you listen and the actor is telling you, you can take a nugget out of all the talk and you can say, “that makes sense. Let’s try it! Would you please try it my way and then we will try it your way?” And you’ll be surprised what comes. You know it’s the fear of giving up your power. There is no power. Power is a mirage. Power is your personal strain power is that you feel comfortable. You’ve got an overall vision.

If the thing whatever it is doesn’t compromise your integrity your vision. Why not?

Aeriel: Memories of Me wasn’t a box office smash but it’s a great character piece that opened doors for him to direct other films.

Eric: Including projects that his gut told him not to take such as the buddy cop movie. Turner and Hooch starring Tom Hanks teaming up with a dog.

Henry Winkler: I was the darling of MGM when it existed. Alan Ladd Jr., the guy who said yes to Star Wars at Fox was the head of MGM at the time. And he cried he loved this movie nobody but him saw it just went like a rock to the bottom of the ocean. And then I was asked into another movie, Turner and Hooch. I read the script and I thought I get this but Jeff Katzenberg called me. He said I want you to direct Turner and Hooch for Disney. Jeff Katzenberg. Disney. My instinct says this is not for me I don’t know how I don’t like this Katzenberg! Disney! I went against my instinct. I prepared it for five and a half months. I was fired 13 days into shooting. I went home in a daze. I thought this is it. I think it was like last Tuesday I got over that.

Aeriel: Henry Winkler wanted to be an actor. You never thought he’d become a director but he did. He never thought he’d get into producing either but ended up doing that too.

Winkler’s Dynamic Career

Henry Winkler: I reached the goal in that I got to be the Fonz I wanted to earn my living acting and I did it in. Bigger than I ever imagined it.

I got letters from 126 countries girls took their jewelry off and sent it to me in the mail. And then I didn’t know that I could produce and my lawyer said you know what I’m going to make you a company and I’ll put you with people who know what you don’t. And we did McGyver and we did sightings and we did so weird. And I thought because I was so dyslexic I thought I was actually stupid that I couldn’t produce that that was like something other people did. If you took everything I produced and you put it end to end, I produced 19 years of series.

Eric: And as someone who battled dyslexia his whole life who was told by his teachers that he was not smart enough. The last thing he ever imagined he’d become was an author.

Henry Winkler: I was bad in math and science and English and reading and comprehension and in history. I was great at lunch and somebody said when there was a lull in my acting career, “Why don’t you write books for kids about your learning challenge?” I said, “I can’t write books. That’s stupid! I’m stupid,” and walked away. Two years later the same guy said “Why don’t you write books for kids about your dyslexia?” This time I went, “OK. Here it is. This is the truth.” You don’t know what you can do unless you try it. You don’t know what you’ve got inside you what you can accomplish until you just put one foot in front of the other and go Hey I think I can do this. I’m going to try it. I’m not kidding. I’m living proof

Aeriel: Mr. Winkler ended his inspirational Q&A with a reminder to our students that much of their success is ultimately up to them.

Conclusion & Goodbye

Henry Winkler: Let me just say this to you. I was where you were. You will be where I am. It’s up to you. The distance between where you are now and where you want to go is all up to you. The line between the two is as thin as the thread you so your button on with. You have the power. You are very powerful don’t second guess your power. Don’t think about right and wrong. Just do what you for yourself know is right. You are all great. You have a gift. You dig that gift out you give it to the world. We are all the same we all are the same as living human beings. If you come from your center from your humanity and you throw it out there it’s going to touch other human beings. Does that make sense. I wish you the best of luck. I really do.

Eric: As Ma Connor always told me always listen to the Fonz.

Aeriel: We want to thank Mr. Winkler for his amazing Q&A and for his graduation speech and well just for being him.

Eric: And thanks to all of you for listening. This episode was written by me Eric Conner and hosted with the wonderful Aeriel Segard. Welcome to the party.

Aeriel: Thank you.

Aeriel: Edited and mixed by Kristian Hayden, and produced by David Andrew Nelson, Kristian Hayden, and Eric Conner.

Eric: Executive produced by Jean Sherlock, Dan Mackler, and Tova Laiter. A big thank you to Chris Devane for bringing in the incomparable Henry Winkler and for moderating his Q & A.

Aeriel: Special thanks to Sajja Johnson and the staff and crew who made this possible.

Eric: To learn more about our programs check us out at nyfa.edu. Be sure to subscribe and leave us a review on Apple podcasts.

In this podcast episode sit down with the actor, director, and producer Henry Winkler, best known for his role on Happy Days as The Fonze.

Sherry Lansing on the Titanic & the Film Industry

In this podcast episode, New York Film Academy brings you the Oscar-nominated producer, Sherry Lansing. Join us as Sherry Lansing discusses some of her most famous films like "Fatal Attraction," "Indecent Proposal;" how "Saving Private Ryan" magically came together, and how "Titanic" was erroneously predicted by many to be the biggest bust of all time.

The Backlot Podcast: Sherry Lansing

  • Sherry Lansing
  • Encounter with Michael Douglas
  • Always Call People Back
  • Collaboration in Film
  • Titanic
  • Behind Box Office Successes
  • Overcoming Insecurity
  • Conclusion & Goodbye

Sherry Lansing

Eric: Hi I’m Eric Conner, senior instructor at New York Film Academy. And in this episode, we bring you the Oscar-nominated producer, Sherry Lansing. Her work as a producer alone would more than warrant this episode with a partner Stanley Jaffe. She ushered in separate projects that were more than just films they were events. Movies of their moment Fatal Attraction, Indecent Proposal and The Accused had people talking long after they left the theater

— My name’s Forrest. Forrest Gump.

Napoleon Dynamite; Barton Fink; Zoolander; Tommy Boy; My Cousin Vinny; Titanic; Tomb Raider; How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days; The Truman Show; Home Alone; Saving Private Ryan; The Fly; The Italian Job; Vanilla Sky; Mission Impossible 2; School of Rock. —

Eric: On top of her career as a producer, Miss Lansing was also one of the first women to run a movie studio twice: first at 20th Century Fox and then Paramount. An impressive track record for anyone, though to hear Miss Lansing describe it her work ethic and intelligence was only part of what got her there.

Sherry Lansing: It was not brain, and it’s certainly not beauty. It was hard work and that’s it. And then if you really work hard you need one other thing and that is luck. And anyone who says you don’t need luck, or – we always called it the movie God – is not telling the truth.

You know I worked just as hard on the films that failed as I did on the ones that succeeded. There was nothing I did different and I believed in most of them exactly the same. So I didn’t do anything different on Fatal Attraction than I did on whatever that didn’t work you know. So sometimes you’re in the Zeitgeist and sometimes it’s because the movie’s really good and some of the movies that aren’t really good are also in the zeitgeist and they do really well. Do you know? So I think you need to really work hard. There’s no shortcut and you need to be prepared to work you know seven days a week you need to be prepared to work 24 hours a day. And if you don’t want to that is okay but then you have to decide what you’re going to be happy with for your career and it doesn’t have to be to be the head of the studio or you know to be a director or whatever it is you can make choices which are very valid choices but if you do that you need luck too.

Eric: Her view on Luck was echoed by an encounter she had with Oscar-winning actor and producer Michael Douglas.

Encounter with Michael Douglas

Sherry Lansing: I still remember when Michael Douglas won the Academy Award and it always stuck in my mind. I thought it was just one of the most honest acceptance speeches I ever heard. And we had done Fatal Attraction with him that you know he’d also done Wall Street but you forget that for years he was Kurt Douglas’s son and he could not get a job and he was considered not a good actor.

I was there once when someone you know stopped him literally on the street and said, “I like your father much better,” and I thought what is wrong with this person. And I turned to him and I said, “well I don’t.” So but it was like I just thought oh my god that burden that he had. I remember he used to say no one takes me seriously whatever and then he won the Academy Award and when he stood up there he said, “I got the part.” There are many talented people out there and they didn’t get the part. So what he was really saying is the movie God shined at me. I’m not the only I’m not the only person that could have run the studio. Believe you me there were a lot of talented people. I’m not the only person that could have had the luck that I had. But I had the luck in addition to really working hard.

Eric: Part of Miss Lansing’s success was doing something simple everyone can and should do. When someone calls you, you call them back.

Always Call People Back

Sherry Lansing: I like people that – it’s just something that comes easy to me. I genuinely like people. There’s almost no one I don’t like it would have to be somebody who was dishonest or deceitful. And second of all returning every call is just good business because you don’t know where that good idea is going to come from. You really don’t. And you don’t return the call. I think that’s about the rudest thing that you could possibly do. You know it’s just so rude and cruel to not treat someone with respect.

And so if you just don’t return their call I think that is so terrible and really it isn’t about the executive. The executive’s job is to find the talent. I mean I never felt any real power because every day you’re trying to get the best script you’re trying to get the best writer you’re trying to get the best actor you’re trying to get the best producer. It is about the person on the other end of the phone. It isn’t about you.

Eric: A big part of being a successful writer or executive is learning how to collaborate. You should view the financiers or the studio as an ally who also wants to make the best story possible.

You know some of the greatest scripts were passed on you know 100 times literally. I mean you know Fatal Attraction was passed on by every studio twice. I mean we could go on Forrest Gump was around for 10 years before anybody made it, whatever. So you should write from your heart and then it’s the push-pull between the studio and the creative force. You must as the creative force try and get the most money that you possibly can for your vision and the studio has to try and get the least amount and the most efficient without hurting the movie. So the studio will come to you and say this section is going to cost 50 million dollars and we don’t want it to and we suggest you take out this or. Tell us what – what your ideas are.

And at some point if you want to get this movie made you may have to make certain compromises in your vision and that’s very painful but you have to come to a point where you say I will compromise this because I don’t think it’s really hurting the movie but I won’t go to that and people do walk away. And they sometimes never get their movie made and other times they walk away and someone else does it. That’s what happened for example with Braveheart. I mean you know someone doesn’t want to make it and someone else will make it. I mean that happens all the time.

Collaboration in Film

Eric: Contrary to popular belief executives are artists too yet they have the difficult task of keeping their eye on the bottom line.

Sherry Lansing: I would urge you to be co-operative as screenwriters. The studio’s not your enemy. They’re really people for the most part who do really love film and really want the same thing that you want. I can’t say everybody, but most of the executives that I know really are doing this because they love movies especially at the level that you’ll be dealing with them. The writers will be dealing with them and sometimes they have great ideas. I mean we had a lot of budget problems on School Ties and I remember Karen Rosenthal just showed me how to take out eight pages. I was shocked. I mean it was her idea she was the executive. And it didn’t we didn’t miss anything. You know so write from your heart write your vision and if you’re lucky it will stay intact. Mostly it won’t. And no it doesn’t mostly it won’t. And that’s just reality. And it may not even be budget. They may say well we can’t go this far with that character that far with this character or whatever but be open. Don’t think of the studio as your enemy. And then everyone has a line they can’t cross.

I mean This is the reality that you’re facing if you sell it to the studio at some point they own it. And so you have to realize that if you’re just saying no all the time they will and I can’t blame them. They bought it, do you know? They gave you the money. They will do it anyways. Do you know? So at some no but they will because they bought it you didn’t have to sell it to them no one held a gun to your head. If you didn’t sell it that’s OK. I mean if you go into a meeting and they say we want to option this but we want you you know to do this and this and you go but that’s not the movie I want to do that’s OK then there’s no hard feelings. But when you come you at least have to say to them can I try it this way. I try and be part of the team. I mean that’s the best advice I can give. And then at some point you have a right to say you know, “I can’t really do this. I don’t understand how to do this. Maybe you should bring someone else in.” And then you have it’s like letting go of your child that’s going to college and you have to say OK it’s all right. So I guess what we’re trying to tell you is you know to be part of the team for as long as you can.

Eric: Part of collaborating well is admitting that you may not be right all the time.

Sherry Lansing: You are wrong as much as you’re right. And anybody who says differently. They’re just not telling the truth because you know when I would pass on something meaning that you know I would say you know it doesn’t work for me and that’s really what I would say. “It doesn’t work for me.” And I used to often say, “I may be wrong. So you’ll be able to tell the story when you win the Academy Award. About what an idiot I was.” Because that’s true. And there are films that I didn’t get. You know that that did well you know so. So I think it’s important to know that it isn’t about you know, and a movie executive is lucky enough to have the resources to help other people and collaborate with them and make a difference in the process to achieve their dream of a certain film. And if you’re lucky and you picked the right ones you will continue to do that for a long time.

Eric: Executives even as high ranking as a studio head often lead their careers in somewhat quiet anonymity. That is unless their movie doesn’t do well.

Sherry Lansing: First of all I think making any movie decision is difficult because you’re greenlighting a movie and quite honestly, if it fails, in my opinion, the only person that’s responsible is the person who greenlit it. So it’s my failure and not my success and that’s what I think the interesting thing about being a studio executive is and John Dongshan felt the same way. We are anonymous in the background. And when it fails – trust me – you know you’ve got to explain it to every board member that there is.

Titanic

Eric: Before its 12-year reign as the highest grossing film ever. Titanic was a movie that many predicted to fail even with a proven master like James Cameron at the helm. The budget ballooned and the film was delayed by half a year. But Sherry Lansing wasn’t afraid of the risk.

Sherry Lansing: There’s many movies. I mean Titanic which was which was a complicated movie. I heard about it from the president of the studio at the time a man named John Goldwin. He knew that 20th Century Fox wanted a partner. I read the script. And for me, every decision is about the script. That to me is the most important thing. If it’s not a good script you shouldn’t make it and I don’t care who’s attached to it. You have to believe in the script and I think good scripts all have two things: characters that you care about and that description evokes an emotional response. It’s not a passive thing. It should make you laugh it should make you cry and you should be involved. So I read the script and I loved the script. I didn’t love the script for the reasons that everybody thinks. I loved the script because I love the love story and I loved Rose. I thought she was an empowered figure and I just thought, “oh my god this is really a woman’s lib movie in a funny way, with a great love story at the core.”

Eric: Miss Lansing believed that the project would be a massive hit and she also believed that Fox’s budget was way too low. In both cases, she could not have been any more right.

Sherry Lansing: I’m not going to remember this exact number was like 12 million dollars for special effects and I went, “Wow that’s not enough.” I mean this is on water. Waterworld had already happened. This doesn’t make sense and 20th Century Fox executives stood by that number. And then we had this famous conversation where I said well I just don’t believe this number you have to add more and you told us it was only 110 and this isn’t what it’s going to be. And they said well what is the worst you think it can go to. And we said, “I believe 130.” And they said, “Great! it will never go to that will cap you meaning you’ll never have to go above half of that investment which was 65 million dollars.” And we said, yes. So in reality, as the picture kept going up and up and up. I hate to say this because I feel a little guilty. I slept so well at night. I can’t tell you but I felt guilty because I would call Bill Mechanic who’s an extraordinary executive and I would say I’m really so sorry. Is there anything we can do to help. He said well you could give us more money. I said well that we can’t do to help. And it went to I think over 200 million dollars. And today you’re going “eh” but then everyone predicted that it was going to be the biggest disaster in the history of film. And instead, it was the most successful film ever released. Until he did Avatar after that and he beat his own numbers.

Behind Box Office Successes

Eric: Of all of Mr. Lansing’s critical and box office successes perhaps none of them came any easier than the Oscar-winning war drama Saving Private Ryan.

Sherry Lansing: One day I was driving home at around 7:15 at night and I got a call from Richard Lovett who was the head of CAA and he said, “So Sherry you know you have this script Saving Private Ryan.” I said, “yes.” He said, “So how would you feel you know if Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks wanted to do it would you do it?” I said, “Well yeah, of course I’d do it.” So he said, “Okay good because they do.” I said, “Oh really.” He said, “really!” And I hung up the phone and I thought, “What is he smoking? I mean what is going on?” I said, “You never get a picture like that!” That requires years of begging years of trying to convince, nine hundred drafts of the script, and I got home and the phone was ringing and it was John Dulgian, my partner and he said, “You have a call from Richard Lovett.” I said, “Yes.” He said, “is he nuts?” He said, “it’s that the two of them. Did you meet them?” I said, “No, I’ve never met with either of them.” And then a few minutes later he calls me he goes, “it’s real.” I said, “how do you know?” He said, “David Geffen said it’s true.” He said, “Steven wants to do it” and I said, “I can’t believe this!” I mean that came together so easily. I did nothing. I did absolutely nothing I never met with them beforehand. I just said, thanks.

Eric: The journey of Tomb Raider was a much more difficult one. Miss Lansing described how it signified a transition in Hollywood. Where quality of product might be giving way to quality of marketing.

Sherry Lansing: What I remember about the movie which is how the movie business has changed, I was watching the dailies. They looked all right and then we saw the first cut of the film. By then there were all sorts of fights between the producer and the director and all sorts of things had happened during the movie that made everybody not like each other. But when I saw the movie I was shocked because the movie made no sense. It was just honestly, a mess and nobody disagreed with that. Nobody. You know the director said, it doesn’t work. The producers said, it doesn’t work and we all went into intensive meetings about how to fix it. What I remember is when we’re walking back from that meeting a man named Rob Friedman who was the head of marketing was the only one that didn’t look like he was going to have a heart attack. I mean, I actually – I was white and I and it was our big tentpole you know that was our big I think July 4th or summer tentpole and he was the only one who was completely calm and I said, “Robby this picture makes no sense. Why are you so calm? Don’t you care?” And he said, “Sherry, we’re going to be fine.” And I said, What do you mean we’re going to be fine? Did you understand it?” He said, “no, but we’re going to be fine.” He said, “I have spots that test through the roof we’re going to open.” What was the number. Twenty? Twenty-eight point six? Whatever the number he said which was huge at that time. And we’re going to do 130 million dollars or whatever the number was. Meaning that if you could market it really does it make any difference if the movie was good or not. And he said to me, “you can spend that three million dollars to fix the movie. It won’t make any difference. We’ll be fine.” And that was the beginning of my wanting to leave the movie business to be honest with you. And I looked at him and I said- I – but I love Robby. He’s still one of my best friends. I said, “I can’t think like that.” Then what’s my job? I think marketing is truly a gift. And I respect people. I got in the business to make movies that had word of mouth that people talk to other people you know and told people to see it. And he was right. We fixed it made sense. Terrific movie for what it is open to exactly the number he said. And it did exactly that number at the end. And that’s how it’s changed and I think it’s changed in the sense that it’s harder and harder to make movies if you can’t market them and get those spots there that you know. And also so much of the drama of dramatic movies have been taken over by the extraordinary things that are on television today that are just amazing.

Overcoming Insecurity

Eric: In a very candid and honest moment. Miss Lansing described that perhaps the biggest obstacle in her career was herself.

Sherry Lansing: I think you sometimes look at a person and you say well they they didn’t have any problems and their life was all smooth. And we do that about people we don’t know. But the truth of the matter is I was an enormously insecure young girl. I had very very little self-esteem. And I think what I had was an incredible desire to be better but it didn’t happen overnight. I mean it was a long process and eventually, I realized that it was really interfering with my life. And so I went into therapy and so I would say that that was the single most important gift I ever gave to myself. And in many ways therapy if you have a good therapist and you can really be honest and unburden yourself to that person. And it’s a safe place. It’s like reparenting yourself and I’m not suggesting that everybody should do that but for me it was the best gift I ever gave to myself. And I wouldn’t be who I am today without that. This is what I really want to say. You know we’re all a work in progress and most of the time you’re OK. And then every once in a while for no reason that 12-year-old child that’s in all of us just pops up and says, “oh my god! why did I say that? Oh my god! why did I do that?” I’m wearing the wrong thing. You know? And I go back to see the doctor quite often when I feel like I can’t handle something and I don’t want to take it out on other people and I find it very helpful. So that was I think that made all the difference in the world

Eric: When things were difficult along the way. Miss Lansing found the best thing to keep her going was the work

Sherry Lansing: Whenever things would go bad I would just concentrate on the movies. I would just concentrate on the script. I would concentrate on the dailies. I would concentrate on the work. And to this day that always takes away my demons that always takes away my depression. Because everyone still gets depressed that’ll take away your anxiety is you start to do the work. Think about something other than yourself and you forget you forget that person that yelled at you you forget. You know the insult that you had and you just concentrate on the one thing that you really care about because if you’re in this business for any other reason than to make it good and by film I mean television everything. I mean the whole thing that will really hurt if you’re in for any other reason.

Eric: And now Miss Lansing has begun a different adventure by turning her attention to a nonprofit. The skills that helped her create dozens of legendary films are now being utilized to give others a chance at reinventing themselves later in life.

Rewiring Instead of Retiring

Sherry Lansing: I’m going to end with my favorite story about being in the not for profit world. So I’m 73 which I know must seem like 110 to you. And when people turn 40 in our industry they’re considered that’s it they’re done. And I think that’s so sad. I can’t tell you. So I had this idea of this program and I wanted to take people who are 55 and up and retrain them to be math and science teachers who were retiring that they should rewire not retire. This is my favorite story.

I said to a group of people the oldest person was 30 35 who had all been appointed by the governor to solve the problem of why there weren’t any more math and science teachers and how could we get people. And I said well we can get this demographic who’s 55 to rewire not retire. And they looked to me like I was insane. And they said a 60-year-old person you’re going to retrain them to be a teacher I said yes. And they said, “what are they going to do? Drool all over the floor?” And I said, “well, I’m 60.” Not a reaction not a reaction not oh my god you don’t look it. Nothing! Nothing! they had already decided I was 110 and so not a reaction at all. And I came back the next day and I said, “you know, Mick Jagger is 61 and if he can jump up and down then he could teach.” And they went, “You’re right!” And then they bought the program. I needed Mick Jagger from the entertainment industry to say the same. So you guys your life is ahead of you and so is mine and you have unlimited options and anything you dream of you can make happen. And we’re going to be going to your movies or watching your television. And I just wish you all the greatest luck in the world.

Conclusion & Goodbye

Eric: No matter the age. Belief in yourself and your work can take you to all kinds of amazing places. We want to thank Miss Lansing for speaking with our students and we want to thank all of you for listening. If you want to learn more about Sherry Lansing and really, you should, check out her biography “Lading Lady.”

This episode was written by me Eric Conner based on the Q&A moderated and produced by Tova Laiter featuring Sherry Lansing and her biographer Stephen Galloway. This episode was edited and mixed by Kristian Hayden; produced by David Andrew Nelson, Kristian Hayden and myself; executive produced by Tova Laiter, Jean Sherlock, and Dan Mackler. A special thanks to our events department Sajja Johnson and the staff and crew who made this possible. If you’d like to watch the entire interview it’s on our YouTube channel. Just go to youtube.com/newyorkfilmacademy. To learn more about our programs check us out at nyfa.edu. Be sure to subscribe and Apple podcasts or wherever you listen. See you next time.

Hey ma, it’s me, Eric. I’m calling you back because you called me and Sherry Lansing said always call people back. Love you.