Cindy Williams on Laverne & Shirley

Sit down with the actor and producer, Cindy Williams in this New York Film Academy podcast episode. Cindy Williams discusses working with legendary directors George Lucas on "American Graffiti," and Francis Ford Coppola as well as how she eventually landed her iconic role as Shirley on the timeless sitcom, "Laverne and Shirley."

The Backlot Podcast: Cindy Williams

  • Cindy Williams
  • How to Get into the Film Industry
  • Francis Ford Coppola
  • Limited by the “Best Friend” Role
  • Switching from Television to Film
  • Laverne and Shirley
  • Importance of a Studio Audience
  • Owning Your Role
  • Williams’ True Love: Being on Stage
  • Williams’ Best Advice: Pursue It
  • Conclusion & Goodbye

Cindy Williams

Eric: Hi I’m Eric Conner senior instructor at New York Film Academy. And in this episode, we bring you Cindy Williams the star of the famed sitcom Laverne and Shirley

— and she’d say, “do know your lines?” and I go, “No.” Do you know yours?” She said, “No.” And so, “action!” And we’d just go out.–

Eric: She also acted for two of the best directors of all time on two of the best films of the 70s. Francis Ford Coppola’s The Conversation. And George Lucas’ American Graffiti if that’s not enough for you. She even helped produce the remake of Father of the Bride starring Steve Martin.

— I’m quitting Mr. Slotnik I’m the brains behind that basket.

I’m telling you it’s a jungle out there. We oughta take a cage and just put it around this place. These people are ugly!

Those hills do not make her perky they make her junky!

Boy, you just stepped straight off the bus right into filth town didn’t you?

I don’t approve of this hitting I find it inhuman and only mildly exciting —

Eric: Ms. Williams actually got her start the same way most actors do, by performing for her family.

Cindy Williams: I always could mimic. My grandma was the first one on the block when we lived in Texas to get a television and I was mesmerized by it. And I would watch anything and everything and I would mimic commercials like Lucky Strike commercials. They had a girl dancing you didn’t see – you just saw her legs and arms and there was a hat on top of a lucky strike box and she danced and they sing the little commercial song. And I would sing the song and mimic. And I always put on with my sister shows in the garage. I’m sure all you guys did things like that or made little movies. So, I always had a love for it but I never ever thought of it seriously as oh this is going to be my career this is going to be my life. I wanted to be an E.R. nurse actually but I didn’t have the academic wherewithal. I was a C student all the way through school because I’m dyslexic. And in my drama class was this wonderful actress and her name was Sally Field. And at 15 she was brilliant. And so I did plays that Sally and I were in and we’d do A cast B cast because there were too many students to put you know so you do two performances. I was always B cast and she was always A cast. And A cast got to do like four performances and B cast, three.

So a lot of the students who were in the class were going to this wonderful school called Los Angeles City College which has an incredible theater arts department and I thought, “OK I’ll go there.” And so I did. And very tough curriculum. In fact during orientation day one of the professors said there are two hundred thirty six of you here today. By the end of two and a half years there will be 12 of you. And that’s how they weeded people out. I mean you-you were tardy three times out! You didn’t get your – you didn’t have your scene work done out, goodbye, gone! But they did incredible theater, incredible productions. So that was a big deal. But by the time we finished there I just garnered incredible love for theater. I love being on stage but I thought I was going to go on to teach except one day I was in a class and professor and we were in the main theater and the stage was there and the curtains and we were sitting in the you know in the seats in the auditorium. And he was talking about theater being bigger than life and up to this point I had thought you know, I’ll go and I’ll get my B.A. and I’ll teach theater. And then I had this vision of myself, my students rehearsing the production and me walking down the center aisle crawling up onto the apron pushing them all out of the way and saying, “Let me show you how to do this.” And I thought I could never teach I could never ever teach because I love doing it. And so that was the end of my of my teaching career.

Eric: For everything that Ms. Williams learned in school, there were still two things that she was not taught: the intricacies of breaking into the film industry and that sometimes you need a bit of luck.

How to Get into the Film Industry

Cindy Williams: In Los Angeles City College. They do not teach you. You know they put you out the back door and they did not prepare you for film. They didn’t prepare you how to get an agent, or how to even work. They prepared you to go and audition for regional theater or Broadway. And that was it. And so you just live on your youthful enthusiasm knowing you can do it and so that was kind of it. And I also thought well lightening better strike because I don’t know what I’m doing so I just went on this journey. But you have youthful optimism and you know you feel as though the world -it’s all in front of you. And it is. Believe me. And there’s nothing you can’t do. And I felt that way. And you know you get knocked down to the ground you just pick yourself up dust yourself off, start all over again. And that’s kind of how that aspect of my life played itself out. And as far as getting a job I had this roommate she was in this program for AFI. It was called young filmmakers or something. And I was waiting tables and she said, “hey Cindy, you know maybe you could go and get in this program.” So I went there and I met with them and they said, “you know, this is really a program for filmmakers and you’re an actress.” And I said, “yes, but you know I think I could write, and I could direct, and put myself in it.” And they said, “no, no, this isn’t for you what we have.” And this is how things work. You’re just – one day something’s plopped down in your lap – and it’s just that magical thing. And so they said, “we’re going to set up an interview for you.” These two men are starting a management company and the names were Fred Roos and Garry Marshall. And so I went to meet them. And I remember Garry said to Fred Roos who produced the Godfather and many many many other things he said. “I like her she’s like a pudgy Barbara Harris.” And I loved Barbara Harris! So I took it as a great compliment. And so then it sort of spun from there.

Eric: It didn’t take long before Ms. Williams found herself working for the likes of Coppola and Lucas. And there was one time she even had to put in a good word to help none other than Harrison Ford land the role that made him a star.

Cindy Williams: Harrison Ford in American Graffiti made four hundred dollars a week for four weeks and he was working as a carpenter and that’s a real success story. And for Han Solo, we begged George to cast him. Because he was such a bad boy on American Graffiti that George was a little reluctant about Harry because he just, you know – I screen tested for it. It was miserable because it was all looking to the right of the camera. That’s what George said. He said, “you’re looking at the universe. You’re steering the ship.” I go, “the ship. OK where’s the wheel?” And it was like all this dialogue about you know, galactic dialogue. And nobody could get it. And George is not exactly a people person. I believe if George could have robots playing, you know, and I think he’s discussed this with Steven Spielberg actually, and he’s very shy and retiring and his genius is all in his whole perception of what he wants on screen. And so you can say, “you know can I try it this way? – Absolutely”! Like the scene in American Graffiti where Ron and I had to make out and go and and we were both so nervous. And I said, “George, how about if we just go out of camera down onto the seat?” and he said, “Yeah.” And that’s how we did it. But George will never tell you anything. It was a joke which Ron and myself we’d say, “George, how was it?” And he’d say, “terrific!” And if you ever ask Ron Howard what George Lucas says the most, it’s “terrific, terrific.”

Eric: Despite being frequent collaborators. Ms. Williams explained that George Lucas’s directing style was vastly different from Francis Ford Coppola’s

Francis Ford Coppola

Cindy Williams: Francis is your quintessential director and he’s operatic. you know. I mean. you know. you’re in a movie with Francis and he loves actors loves them and admires them reveres them and he’s so intelligent. He’ll ask his actors what they think of this scene for the conversation he said, “Who do you think did it?” And all of us said, “you haven’t written the end yet?” and he goes, “No, I haven’t.” And we said, “Holy crap!” But he is just so much bigger than life. He’s like – I don’t know – somebody like Michelangelo or somebody. He’s just a great great artist and he will direct you. And I had this tough thing he asked me to do in the conversation. And I said, “I don’t know how to do this.” And it was a turn. He wanted me to turn and look at Gene Hackman with a look of “if you come toward me any closer I’ll disappear into this fog and you’ll never find me.” And I thought, “OK how do I?” It goes back to interpreting that through your body. And I said, “Francis I don’t know how to do this. I just don’t know.” And he thought for a minute and he said, “when he’s chasing you take every step except the last one. And then when you take the last step turn to him.” And that body movement propelled me into that look. It just gave that indication of “I will be gone if you come any closer to me.” And he just turned it like that. And the other thing he did in the beginning of the conversation – it’s the scene in Union Square. He went to each and every one of them and took them aside and gave them each characters to play. And that’s why when you see the opening of this movie it is so rich. And that’s how he is he just rich with just creation.

Eric: Even though she was working on some incredible projects, Ms. Williams felt limited by the best friend role that she kept getting. A trend which finally changed when she was cast as Shirley.

Cindy Williams: I was always cast, in the beginning, as a lead’s best friend. “Oh, don’t worry Monica. Johnny’ll be coming back to ya. You’ll see.” And it was always stuff like that and I never got to play comedy which I loved and like in American Graffiti I said, “Oh please Fred, this girl cries the entire time. There’s no fun. I want to play Debbie, the bad girl.” And he said, “already cast” and I said, “Well then, what about Carol?” He said, “The 12-year-old?” And I said, “I could put braces on my teeth.” He said, “I’m actually casting a 12-year-old in that part.” So I know I could do physical comedy. I knew I could do comedy and I wanted to play it so badly. I mean we did the Imaginary Invalid in college but that’s not really comedy. It’s like restoration humor. But no, I never got to. And even when we did Laverne and Shirley I had to beg Garry because he let me do humor but he kept saying, “No, you’re a nice one, you’re the solid one. You know, you have your head screwed on straight. You keep Laverne, you know, steady.” And I said, “Yeah but you know that physical comedy, I can do that.” And he wouldn’t let me do it; wouldn’t let me do it. And finally I must have dogged him so much that he said, “all right I’m going to write you something. We’ll see how you do and that’ll be the measuring point.” So he wrote me this little thing where we’re cleaning house. I believe that’s it. And she gets the vacuum cleaner stuck on her mouth and she can’t – and I come to the room and it was just written, “Shirley gets vacuum cleaner off of Laverne’s mouth.” So he just wanted to see what I ‘d invent to get it off of her mouth and I think I finally just put my foot up to her chest and pulled then he started writing physical comedy for me. Yeah, so, Laverne and Shirley was just such a blessing for me.

Eric: Though we’re in a golden age of television right now. TV used to be viewed as a step down from the glamour of film. So Ms Williams was initially unsure about taking a TV role even after she was offered a part in the original Charlie’s Angels.

Cindy Williams: This sounds silly but I never even thought about television – well before – before Laverne and Shirley I was offered Charlie’s Angels the part they wanted me to play was – I remember there was this one scene where the character rides to a vineyard on a horse and shoots a guy and it was the most ridiculous thing in the world to me. I mean I’m very bad at reading scripts and you know seeing their potential I just am. And I said oh I could never do that so I turned it down. And the next thing was Laverne and Shirley after, after that. But I mean could I have done that? I guess I could have, you know? But it wasn’t my cup of tea. But also the dramas on television, it’s serious. I mean it’s really well done and it’s done like film. The creative aspect of it on all levels is just so superior to what we had. It’s so different than what it is now.

Eirc: When Ms. Williams was cast in Laverne and Shirley she assumed it’d be easy to jump back into film. But it took a shot with the Fonz himself. Henry Winkler to realize that switching to television might be a one way street.

Switching from Television to Film

Cindy Williams:  When Laverne and Shirley came about and I had done films I thought well I’ll do this and then I’ll go back to films. And I think it was Henry Winkler or someone said to me you know, once you’re in this they don’t want to go and you’re constantly likened to that character. And I didn’t believe that. I thought I could trump that but I couldn’t. And I’m so blessed with what I have. I remember going in for a movie while I was doing Laverne and Shirley Warren Beatty was directing it. And I went in to meet him and he recognized me immediately said, “Oh no no no.” And that was when it hit me and he said, “I’m sorry. I’m sorry.” He said, “it’s just I can’t have a person as recognizable in the film.” And I said, “it’s OK it’s all right.” I went home I was so upset and he was so nice he called me and apologized. That’s when it hit me that it was for real that you in those days there was no crossing. Especially something as big as Laverne and Shirley.

Laverne and Shirley

Eric: Laverne and Shirley was quite modern by focusing on a friendship between women. Yet it also harkened back to classic screwball comedy like I love Lucy and other famous sitcoms filmed live in front of a studio audience

— Laverne and Shirley is filmed before a studio audience. —

Cindy Williams:  The way we did like Laverne and Shirley is – it was done like a little stage play but with cameras right. You did the three cameras and the camera’s between the audience and the stage. So you still had the feeling a proscenium but it was on film and you could be a lot bigger film is a whole other deal. I find it absolutely different than doing a sitcom. You go out and you say one line or they call you at 6:00 in the morning and you’re on camera during a crying scene at 7:00 in the morning. It’s a very very different ballgame. I never could figure it out. I couldn’t figure it out. I never did it long enough to learn the technique and it’s a totally different technique. And I’ve studied it on other actresses and actors and it’s about moves attitude but you have to keep yourself within the lens of the camera. It’s just a different play. Francis Coppola used to say that when he would bring his actors in onto the set he would have them go through the scene and he’d stand there with the DP because he said your actors will show you where the camera should go. And that is just so brilliant because the actors intuitively go to where their bodies send them.

Eric: Nowadays the vast majority of half-hour comedies are single cam shows like Modern Family and Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt. No studio audience, no laugh track. I said no laugh track. See! Better. But in the time of Laverne and Shirley, it was a very different story.

Importance of a Studio Audience

Cindy Williams:  We would get the script and we’d say, “Oh this isn’t going to work. This is thin here and it’s not funny doesn’t start off funny. It isn’t dynamic enough.” And so we just work on it and we work on it on our feet the first day maybe we try and block one seeing a scene that might have been full that might work. And then we come in the next day there’s new pages and you go through that and you see what they’ve changed and you add that into the mix and then because our show was very physical as was Happy Days we would walk it and try and just through body language and attitude and pacing just lift it just make it funny. And that would be the second day and then they come back on Wednesday and there’d be a new script and on Laverne and Shirley we always aim toward. There was always a big physical scene at the end so it was all moving toward that. And we blocked that and that was just that was so exhausting and so Penny and I would mark that and then there’d be a run through were you know everybody’s down there. And then on Thursday the camera crew would come in and they would be on wheels so they’d follow us around so because they had to learn the show. So that day was stop-and-go. And we’d still be creating and trying to make things you know funnier props funnier costumes funnier. And we tried to get it so that it would make us laugh out loud because we figured what we laughed at an audience would laugh out loud at. And then Friday you run through once, then you know scripts are out of your hand and you run through again. But we’d still get rewrites that was like death-defying work. I mean sometimes I’d say to Penny, “if Jesus walked the earth he could make this work but he’d be the only one who could make this work.” And then sometimes we’d be standing behind the door before they yell, “Action!” And she’d say, “you know your lines?” And I go, “No. Do you know yours?” She said, “No.” And so, “Action!” And we just go out because it was so tiring and just so much stress but so gratifying and especially when you heard the audience react. It was just. And that’s the other thing in comedy you don’t know what the timing is going to be because you have to hope for the laughs and you have to you know keep the rhythm going. It was very different in those days. But it was so gratifying when that audience came in and they reacted the way you were hoping and praying they would react.

Eric: Part of what made Laverne and Shirley such a successful and beloved sitcom was how Cindy Williams and Penny Marshall fully owned the roles they played.

Owning Your Role

Cindy Williams:  The actual act of acting. It’s every element of your being interpreting filtering the words in the script through all your elements and assigning certain feelings you have that you feel are correct to that character and then you have to forget about it. You’ve done all the work and then you go out there and you play it and you own it. But it’s going through you it’s your interpretation of it you put it all together and that’s the character I mean because you’re given the map and you just interpret that map. It’s going to be individual for everybody. How they go about it and you can study people and see how they go about it. Like Meryl Streep – the first movie she was ever in I remember critics saying, “watch this little move this wonderful actress.” She only has three lines and she did this little thing before she said the line where she adjusts a brooch and I said, “whoa! She added that. She flavored it with that.” So it’s also a little bit of your own flavoring and so – it’s just a myriad of things.

Eric: Similar to Penny Marshall who went on to direct films like Big, Awakenings. Cindy Williams also expanded her career behind the camera.

Cindy Williams:  You know I took time off had my children but I produced, well I got co-producer credit on Father of the Bride. And the way that came about was I my son woke me up one morning he was three years old and he wanted to go downstairs and play. So I took him downstairs to the den and Turner Classic Movies had just started. And Father of the Bride was on with Spencer Tracy and Elizabeth Taylor. I loved that movie as a kid and I thought this is like a big old sitcom and there’s something for everybody. What about an updated remake with Jack Nicholson? And so it evolved and it became Steve Martin, brilliant in it. And it turned out to be this marvelous marvelous remake. And I was just so fortunate. But when you get an idea and you know that it’s something special you can feel it your body will tell you everything will tell you and you got to just follow that instinct because you’re your own litmus paper for that. You’ve got follow that instinct. When you get an idea and it takes your breath away it’s correct.

Eric: Despite being on a hit TV show and acting for Francis Ford Coppola and George Lucas one of Ms. Williams favorite roles was when she returned to her first love the stage.

Williams’ True Love: Being on Stage

Cindy Williams:  Being on Broadway and doing The Drowsy Chaperone and I don’t know if any of you have seen it but it’s a marvelous musical about musicals and theater. And just getting to run on stage, and when the orchestra came, it was just I’m getting goosebumps right now. It was just thrilling. And I was the first character onstage except for the narrator in the beginning and then he says, “Don’t you love theater?” That’s how it begins. And it is a marvelous musical. So don’t – you just love it. Sitting there in the dark and wondering when the lights are going to come up. Anyway, it’s this marvelous monologue before the lights come up and when the lights I got to play the character of when the lights came up and that and the music starts I run on stage and that for me. Of course, the show was canceled three weeks into my run of the show. But I call that my three weeks on Broadway. But those were the most thrilling moments onstage for me.

Eric: And part of what still makes the stage so thrilling for her is that sometimes it can go so wrong.

Cindy Williams:  You know that’s happened to me where I’ve gone up on stage more times than I’d like to admit to. But you’ve got to stay in the play. I’ve watched myself on Laverne and Shirley where I’m like drifting off. And I’m like not in it – I’m just not present and I don’t know why. I was tired or something but I caught myself a few times. So you just have to make that note you’re here listen to what’s going on even if you’re standing back or you’re sitting back peeling an apple while the scenes going on. Listen to what’s going on and you’ve got to stay present there. I’m talking to myself here too giving myself some notes right now. I once actually I had this play and I cut to the end. I only had 10 days rehearsal we were doing it was Jo Anne Worley and myself and we were doing female odd couple to try and save this theater and we had like nine days rehearsal. And there were two lines that were similar at the end of two of the scenes and one was in the third scene and one was at the end of the play and I just I started the speech she gave me the line and I’m still to this day not sure if she didn’t say the wrong line. But anyway I found myself going into the monologue for the end of the play but I wasn’t aware of it and I thought this is going well and she’s supposed to exit. And I said, “and don’t come back!” And she turns, Jo Anne Worley turns in the wings and she goes, “don’t you want to ask me about dating men?” And I go, “oh my god! Yes! yes I do.” And then I like my mind rolled back and I improvised for a while and then we got back on script. But now we had done the end of the play. So when I go off stage the stage manager, gosh it was like noise is off he said, “oh my god. Jo Anne says he wants to know what you want to cut to when we come-?” And somehow some way and we got through it – and it was Neil Simon and I felt awful. I mean he wasn’t there, thank god, but I’m sure he heard about it – but oh my god. Talk about sweating through your suit jacket. I was mortified but you can’t be – I mean you know, I had to finish the play and we did.

Eric: When asked about the best advice for a new performer Ms. Williams’ answer was simple direct and profound

Williams’ Best Advice: Pursue It

Cindy Williams:  Pursue it. You know. I mean pursue it and and think outside the box and you’ve got to put your rhinoceros skin suit on. I had a publicist tell me this. You know it’s like not being invited to a party most of the time. You can’t take it personally although we all do. Because you-you know you’ve opened yourself up to these people and then you know you don’t get the part but you just have to pick yourself up dust yourself off and start all over again and and be done with that day and it’s on to the next and the next thing will happen. And you have to keep that attitude but you just keep pursuing it don’t take any prisoners don’t take no for an answer. Just keep going and always think outside the box. Like if there’s an audition that you might not be able to get in on. You can figure out a way to get in there. You’ve heard all those stories about people going after a part. Also keep studying keep. Keep doing like, scene work and what you’re doing here.

Conclusion & Goodbye

Eric: Keep doing your thing and things can happen to learn more about Cindy Williams’ storied career pick up her book, “Shirley, I Jest!” We want to thank Ms. Williams for speaking to our students and we want to thank all of you for listening. This episode was based on the Q&A moderated and produced by Tova Lyter and co-moderated with Lynda Goodfriend. If you’d like to watch the full interview you can find it on our YouTube channel at youTube.com/NewYorkFilmAcademy. This episode was written by me Eric Conner edited and mixed by Kristian Hayden produced by David Andrew Nelson Kristian Hayden and myself executive produced by Tova Laiter, Jean Sherlock, and Dan Mackler. A special thanks to our events department Sajja Johnson and the staff and crew who made this possible. To learn more about her programs check us out at NYFA.edu. Be sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen see you next time. And now the theme to Laverne and Shirley as read by me Eric Conner: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 schlemiel shemozzle Hossen Pfeffer incorporated. We’re going to do it. Give us any chance we’ll take it. Read us any rule, we’ll break it. We’re going to make our dreams come true. Doing it our way.

Actor Dolph Lundgren

Join us as we chat with the talented and versatile Dolph Lundgren on The Backlot. Get to know Dolph Lundgren as he speaks of his transition into acting and his iconic role, Ivan Drago in Rocky IV.

Dolph Lundgren on Ivan Drago

  • Dolph Lundgren
  • Ivan Drago
  • An Overnight Sensation
  • Advice: Get Therapy & Start Mediating
  • Physical Toll of the Industry
  • Being Happy with What You Have
  • Benefits of Challenging Yourself
  • Spending Time Behind the Camera
  • Finding a Connection to the Material
  • Conclusion & Goodbye

Dolph Lundgren

— Who is the most underrated actor of all time? It’s Dolph Lundgren – Correct. Why? – Well because of his spiky hair and his ice-cold demeanor and his big muscles. – Absolutely.

If you don’t want that fu manchu knocked back into the 60s you better keep your gum chewing trap shut and show some respect.

I’m gonna hit you very very hard.

Our only hope of defeating Skelletor is to find the cosmic key.

Are you out of your mind? – No, just out of bullets.–

Eric:  Hi and welcome to the Backlot. I’m Eric Conner senior instructor at New York Film Academy. And this episode we’ve got the man who killed Apollo Creed. Dolph Lundgren. Now if you couldn’t tell already I’m a bit of a geek. The kind of geek that would go to let’s say the new Beverley’s Dolph Lundgren Film Festival which was a glorious 10 hour road trip down 80s memory lane Red Scorpion, Rocky IV, The Punisher, Universal Soldier, Dolph Lundgren’s the rare action star who’s as comfortable throwing a punch as he is a joke. But before he burst on the scene Mr. Lundgren moved to America for his brains and not his brawn.

Dolph Lundgren: I studied chemical engineering and school my dad was an engineer and my older brother’s an engineer I came to America under various scholarships to study engineering and chemistry and I ended up getting a Fulbright scholarship to MIT which is a great school in Boston. I was fighting. I was a karate fighter as well an amateur fighter. So that was my goal to come here graduate from MIT get a business degree and be the president of Exxon you know and something like that. But things didn’t really turn out that way. Then I went back to Sweden studied there for a couple of years did my military service went to Australia on another scholarship in Australia I met this girl this singer Grace Jones who was like a big deal in those days. We kind of fell in love and I came over to hang with her in New York ran into a few characters like Andy Warhol and Michael Jackson a few guys like that and back in the 80s Studio 54 the back room studio. I’ve been there. Interesting for a young Swedish kid and somewhere along the way I decided to start doing modeling to get a visa and then somebody said hey man you know you can do movies you can fight. You know you’re a big guy. So I started studying acting and when I did my first scene I realized wow this is really cool. I like this there’s something here that I haven’t done before because I’d been intellectual and I’d been physical but I’ve never really been emotional.

Eric: After appearing in a few films Mr. Lundgren audition for the role that would change his career. Ivan Drago the seemingly invincible Russian boxer from Rocky IV the problem was he looked a little too invincible.

Ivan Drago

Dolph Lundgren: Within about nine months I was up for a bunch of different movies and some of them were kind of dramatic roles or small roles but more dramatic and then there was this boxing movie that I went up for I didn’t know what it was. And I came up to a woman who sat at the table and she says, “ok, next! How tall are you?” And I say, “6’4” – “too tall! Next!” And I was like, “wait a second!” And I saw the poster Rocky IV, and I thought, “I got to do something about this.” And I took some pictures in boxing gear and sent them to somebody who my acting coach told me he said he knew somebody. He knew Burt Young and Burt Young was going to give the pictures to Sly. Well, nothing happened. Six months later I gave up on the whole thing and I was in Europe. Grace was working on a picture – a Bond movie actually and I was hanging out with her, with Christopher Walken. He was, he was the bad guy and she was the bad girl. So I was a bit jealous because they had like a love scene or something. And anyway – so I got a call from somebody some PA you know, like, “thank god I’ve found you! I’ve been looking for you for months! You know, we couldn’t find you. Because we had this picture!” and turned out that finally, Stallone got the photos. And they flew me out here to California from New York and I hopped in a cab here and LAX.

And I remember driving to Paramount because that’s where Stallone had his offices and I came in there and met Sly Stallone he had long hair very tanned because he was doing one of the Rambo pictures and he was a little shorter than I thought you know I was like “hm, OK.”

But you know he was really nice to me.

He had all these binders like everywhere black binders he’s all, “I got five thousand guys up for this role…” and says, “You gotta put on some weight.” Anyway we took some pictures and and you know I had to audition for it and six months later you know I had the part.

Eric: Mr. Lundgren nailed his audition mostly by doing the exact opposite of everyone else auditioning.

Dolph Lundgren: I was in great shape because I was I was European karate champion a heavyweight champion actually so I was pretty good fighter but I was quite thin. Here and had big legs from all those kicks. And then I had to get in shape for the screen test. They flew me to L.A. here. Some guy in a pickup truck picked me up and I had to audition. You know I was going deliver a monologue that I had practiced in New York. It was yeah they used it in one of the trailers it started –

— My name is Drago I’m a fighter for the Soviet Union. I’m a fighter from the Soviet Union. I fight all my life and I never lose. Soon I fight Rocky Balboa and the world will see his defeat. —

Dolph Lundgren: So I stay at the hotel you know and I was walking to the elevator to go back up. The doors open and there’s a 6 foot 5 blond guy looking at me. Excuse me some big Russian guy right. OK. Then I run into another big blonde guy I was like, “Oh s**t! OK.” Because I realized it wasn’t just me. It was three of us and I came to the studio and the sound stage empty sound stage just dolly tracked like this mark here we get changed into trunks, you know, bare-chested and there is about 50 people behind the camera: Sly, his bodyguards, guys in suits you know, a bunch of onlookers. And everybody’s looking at me and I’m like, “oh s**t here we go this is serious.” So I was last and the other two guys they kind of did a Russian Mr. T, “I’m gonna kill you,” you know. And I decided to play him very cool like it was all internal you know no movements and I’d seen the Soviet cadets they always kept their chin up like this. So I did my screen test and went back to New York and then the next day I got a phone call, “Hey kid you get the part you know.” So that was it man. And then I trained with Stallone for five months so at the end of that year of hard training I was in such good shape like sly said you know, “you’re in such good shape you’ll never be able to get out of shape after this.” And he was he was kind of right you know it was hard work.

Twice a day we did weights for an hour in the morning and then we did boxing for two hours every afternoon six days a week five months. And if I was five minutes late he went nuts and I was driving you know, through L.A. traffic going “f**k!”You know, I was going out with Grace and she would come home at 5:00 in the morning you know with her entourage you know and I had to get up at like 5:15 you know so it was it was a tough time.

Eric: Mr. Lundgren even found inspiration for Drago in the works of Mary Shelley.

Dolph Lundgren: Drago is like kind of the Frankenstein myth created by the system the bad guys Dr. Frankenstein really the monster is just a creation right. So that’s that’s why it sort of resonates I think on that level. And I had this guy who helped me with the Russian accent and everything who was a Russian director. He gave me a lot of suggestions that I took you know because I was quite inexperienced as an actor I didn’t really know about playing second level and all that. But he was Stanislavski trained director so he had me play a lot of second level stuff because he meant that the character is so stoic what’s going on? What are you thinking about? What is Drago worrying about? And some of that comes across quite well on screen that he is feeling bad about what he’s having to do, but he does it anyway and he’s kind of embarrassed about certain situations, but that wasn’t in the script. That was something that I ended up playing. And I think in the editing and Stallone when he cut the picture he saw some of that and he brought it out. So it’s a combination of both. I think.

Eric: When Mr. Lundgren watches himself in Rocky IV he doesn’t see an unstoppable wrecking machine. He’s a young actor that he was completely overwhelmed by the spectacle of it all.

Dolph Lundgren: One of the strongest things was shooting in Vegas. When we did the thing with Apollo Creed you know it was actually a real MGM show and there were the dancers were there and they had the ring come up and that was very interesting to me because when I see the movie the look of shock and confusion in Ivan Drago’s eyes is the look of shock and confusion in my eyes when I was there and when I saw that and there was no acting required you know. And it kind of makes me look at my own self at that age and it’s kind of nostalgic and kind of in a very nice way you know how I was such a kid. I was such a baby you know when I was there.

Eric: Rocky IV came out in the middle of the Cold War and became the biggest hit of the franchise. Nobody was more surprised by the film success than Dolph Lundgren himself.

Dolph Lundgren: You know what was strange. There’s something called ADR you know you redo your dialogue because some of the lines aren’t clear or something. So I went in there and I expected to see some of the movie because I hadn’t seen anything. I mean there were no monitors in those days none of that. So I went in there and it was like a s**tty black and white copy and I saw some scenes and I was wow this is it. This is what I work my ass off for a year. Didn’t look very impressive. So I went home I was a little depressed you know then I went into the premiere I was with Grace and there was a marching bands and the whole thing you know and people were trying to get me out of the way to take pictures of her you know. “Could you please step out of the way ?”You know you’re in the way of my camera and then I went in there and I sat down and the screen came up and those boxing gloves. And then I sat there like this for an hour and a half lights came up everybody was applauding and everybody’s looking at me because I guess I was a new guy you know and they knew sly already and then it came out. Like you said and people are taking pictures of me instead of Grace. And it was a weird it took me years I mean at least a year to get over it that first initial kind of shock. But it was an interesting period for sure.

Eric: In one week Mr. Lundgren went from being Grace Jones’s boyfriend to a full-blown movie star but becoming an overnight sensation also had a downside.

An Overnight Sensation

Dolph Lundgren: You know I wish in one way OK I can’t go back and change history and I got famous overnight for something I didn’t exactly really know what I was getting into. And I wish that I would have had broader education and been little more aware of the business and the various opportunities and the various positions and perhaps you know things that took me 20 years to accomplish or longer. I could have done maybe a couple of years if I had that education and the understanding because once you become. Valuable in the industry like once you’re box office and to stay put asses on seats. Right. If you could do that then the audience if you play priest you’re going to play another twenty-five priests you know in the next 25 movies. Or that’s what they want you to do. But maybe when you have a broader education like some guys after a couple of movies some actors they direct something or produce it and they do their own thing you know that I wish I would’ve had that opportunity.

Eric: And when asked what advice he’d give his younger self to weather the storm of celebrity. His answer was rather simple.

Advice: Get Therapy & Start Mediating

Dolph Lundgren: I would say get some therapy. Get therapy start meditating.

Make sure you have the best advisers. Make sure that you have a lot of inner calm and that you’re very secure in your self.

So you can have some resistance to that crazy world out there.

And I had some of that from martial arts but you know I got pulled along in many crazy directions because I didn’t I didn’t really have people to support me to speak to. You know I only had one or two people but I never had that really somebody to bounce things off like that. You know I started therapy by the way about four or five years ago. And now we say, “well acting is like therapy I don’t need any that’s bulls**t and I don’t need that.” But I realized therapy is great you know Marlon Brando started it you know back in the 50s you know because as an actor you have a lot of usually some emotional complexity and things but then in the business there’s a lot of pressure and a lot of times you beat yourself up over things that you really shouldn’t beat yourself up over that’s completely natural and by talking to somebody you know who knows you and who can give you good advice and you can bounce things off them it’s really valuable. It’s been great for me you know. So I think that and meditation I started doing that as well about four-five years ago has also been great to keep some kind of time during the day just for yourself when it’s all about you. And it’s not about doing things it’s about being and in a crazy world you know that that’s a really valuable moment I think for anybody and that goes back to you in your acting as where.

You know when you’re facing the camera you don’t necessarily have to do so much all the time because you have the courage to be in just, just breathe and just look the other person in the eye and just be yourself you know.

Eric: When you watch Mr. Lundgren’s films you can see his years of martial arts training. However over 50 films later it has definitely taken a toll on his body.

Physical Toll of the Industry

Dolph Lundgren: It’s hard to do martial arts when you’re a big person because you have a lot of torque you know and you’re I mean I’m very supple anyway from it’s just natural but I’ve had some injuries lately that I have to do less training and as a matter of fact I’m having some stem cell injections now I’ve done you know 40 years of karate so and you know a lot of the crazy stuff in the movies no warm up three in the morning stretch stretch and then you know do something crazy well I don’t do that anymore but I think you have to be careful if you want to be in martial arts in the movies to take care of your body and not to get worn out. Jet Lee he has a lot of damage worse than me a lot of those guys you know they get a lot of injuries you know and I think the best thing is to do strength training and stretching and really be careful to you know do some any crazy kicks and stuff unless you warmed up you know because I did a lot of the crazy stuff and I am paying for it now a little bit so you know hopefully I’ll get through these stem cell injections and everything and I’ll be back in Expendables 4 I hope next year maybe 2018.

Eric: One of Mr. Lundgren’s more recent endeavors was the Expendables franchise a veritable who’s who of our favorite action stars Stallone Schwarzenegger Willis Statham Van Damme even Harrison Ford showed up in the third one. Yet despite all the wattage of star power Mr. Lundgren explained that the egos were checked at the door.

Being Happy with What You Have

Dolph Lundgren: Well there is a little bit of that in the air. When you show up I mean you can’t help it these guys are athletes and a lot of them have their own franchises their own movies you know on The Expendables 2 I remember. I came with a few friends and then I’m in there. They’re putting all the gear on you and then you know Chuck Norris comes in and then you know Van Damme shows up and Jet Lee is over in the corner and Jason Statham. Wait a second, Stallone, Arnold, Bruce Willis was in that scene too. Yeah, it’s a bit surreal but I think what happens is the real athletes in there like I guess I count myself as such. To some extent and you know like Randy Couture and Terry Crews and Van Damme too. I think they’re not as competitive as maybe some of the other guys because to them the real competition is when it’s real and you getting your ass kicked for real that’s just bad. That’s painful. You know this is just a movie. You know there’s a little bit of competition but I think the bottom line is we’re all in the same picture and we want it to be a good movie. So you’re going to help if anybody asked me to help them. You know I’m not jealous of Van Damme or Stallone or any.

I know that there’s always somebody who’s bigger than you richer than you. Better actor than you got a better looking girlfriend than. You know they got bigger biceps. You know there’s. You know you just got to be happy for what you got you know. And that you’re in the movie.

Eric: As fun as it is seeing all these titans in one film. One of them almost didn’t make it out in one piece.

Dolph Lundgren: Yeah I had a few crazy experiences. I mean. There’s been a few lately on Expendables 3 there was some near misses. I mean there is a truck that we were supposed to all be on and we were practicing early in the morning Jason Statham’s driving and you know there’s some cameras set up he’s just doing like a little test run. And for some reason the brakes aren’t working so here’s the water we’re in the port and he comes driving and the truck doesn’t stop it just keeps going and takes out the cameras and he goes in the water and he disappears with the truck you know. So we’re all there going. What the hell is Jason in there and then someone’s like f**k send in the divers. But the guy was a diver you know so he pulled himself out. But you know I’ve been in a similar situation where I was in Masters of the universe. This is back in the 80s where things weren’t quite as you know organized as now late night shoot and I had to jump out of a window through the candy glass with my sword and then onto this on the set there’s just like a platform. And I get up there and I decide to do it I’m going to do it myself. And as I’m jumping you know I look and there’s no there’s just concrete and you know Time Stands Still it’s a short jump from here to there but for a moment I’m like oh s**t this is it I managed to somehow make it. If that was now you know a lot of people have done in serious trouble. But it was just ok he survived.

That’s good. That’s what happened.

Eric: Mr. Lundgren’s work in 2015. Indie horror film don’t kill it shows that even after decades in the industry he is still challenging himself.

Benefits of Challenging Yourself

Dolph Lundgren: I’ve done a few. You know I did do a little movie lately about two years ago called Don’t kill it just a little horror movie and this guy Mike Mendez who’s like weird far out director and it’s very bloody you know. But when I read the script it started out with this five page monologue you know and I was like OK how do I cut this down. But then immediately I realized no wait a second this is a great monologue. And I got to do this you know and I had to work on it. And because the film was postponed twice I really knew everything quite well. I knew all my speeches and all of that that was a very challenging role for me because I’m not used to doing that. But it was also I got some good reviews and it was really a bit of a breakthrough for me as an actor. And it was just recently actually it’s tough you know. I mean I think you go for those independent movies you know and that was just luck of the draw. That I found that role I had about 10 years or so after that rocky picture where I just I did a couple of movies where I really worked hard and then I did a bunch of movies were kind of didn’t care so much because I was having fun you know I was the young man you know and I was getting famous and you know I wasn’t married and had a lot of you know kind of late nights and things like that.

And you know I went astray you know I went I mean I always worked hard but I didn’t really focus on oh let me let me do this and then we get my career over here. But lately I’ve done a little more of that. And the thing is it doesn’t take much for people to see it. And then they realize oh he can do this. OK great then we can give him that. And you know happens quickly. The business responds quickly to to anything that you do as an artist which is cool.

Eric: He’s also spending more time behind the camera as a director and he’s welcoming the extra responsibility that comes with the role.

Spending Time Behind the Camera

Dolph Lundgren: Directing is more fun to me in one way kind of more challenging. Acting is playing playing and being childish childlike whereas directing you are a little more responsible. Now I’ve done the acting stuff a lot. So for me directing is is more of a challenge in one way especially now when I have a lot of experience and what I’ve realized as a director a lot of my experience can be to calm people down you know and like the producers you know like the actors hey guys you know don’t worry. Don’t worry it’ll be fine. Just have fun you know like that kind of kind of a calming influence instead of running around then you know. Once you have a good script and you cast the right people you don’t need to do that much. You don’t need to try to push people around too much it’s just it’s there already in the story and they just need to speak the line you know and to have fun with it. It’s an entertaining kind of a job and you know you’re supposed to have fun being an actor and being a director and you’re supposed to be laughing and goofing off a little bit too.

Stallone has a lot of fun and a lot of the Expendables guys like Arnold you know he’s makes jokes all the time with the cigar you know it’s all everything is you know the people love the guy. So you know you will crash the chopper you know don’t let them fly it you know.

Eric: Mr. Lundgren stressed that even after three decades as a performer it is crucial to find your own connection to the material.

Finding a Connection to the Material

Dolph Lundgren: I think the challenge is that you want to make it fresh for yourself all the time like you have to find something fresh in the material for you to be excited about what you’re going to do about the role. I mean I always try to find something if it’s a secret of mine or something I don’t tell anybody I don’t tell the director I don’t tell anybody you know some secret about the character and the way I approach it. Something maybe in the character’s backstory or something in the mannerisms or the way he talks or whatever. You know something that makes you want to come to the set every day and that is challenging because it takes a little bit of work to figure that out. And usually I sit with a script and I sit with the lines and I try this and I try that and I try to. Think of it and. Sometimes I’m watching another movie or I see some program about nature and I see a lion or something.

Wow that’s kind of interesting maybe I’ll use that. So that’s how I look at it. That is the challenge to make it fresh and fun for yourself.

Eric: Before he left Mr. Lundgren was kind enough to share a potential spoiler about the fate of Ivan Drago.

Dolph Lundgren: You know I said I’ve said many times I would not play Ivan Drago again because I thought you know the reason he’s such an icon in one way is because he’s only you can only see him up here you know but then.

Well I can tell you anyway because it’s probably gonna you know be public but anyway Stallone contacted me about six months ago and asked me you know what do you think what about playing Ivan Drago again. You know I got this idea you know. You know basically, he’s thinking of Ivan Drago coaching his young Russian son who’s a fighter. So then I would play a trainer like Sly did in Creed but sly would train the African-American kid and I would train the Russian kid you see. So I don’t know if it will happen but if it does you know you know you heard it here first.

Conclusion & Goodbye

Eric: The return of Ivan Drago. Sign me up. Thanks to Mr. Lundgren for sharing his stories with our students and thanks to all of you for listening. This episode was written by me Eric Conner based on the Q&A moderated by Chris Devane. The episode was edited and mixed by Kristian Hayden produced by David Andrew Nelson Kristian Hayden and myself executive produced by Jean Sherlock. Dan Mackler and Tova Laiter a special thanks to Chris Devane Aerial Segard Sajja Johnson and the staff and crew who made this possible. To learn more about our programs check us out at NYFA.edu. Be sure to subscribe and leave us a review on Apple podcasts. See you next time.