Just a quick heads up, the episode today will be playing clips from a rated R film and some of those clips are going to have some salty language. So if you have any kids listening, you may want to put on some headphones.

Hey, this is David Nelson, creative director of the Backlot Podcast. We have a special episode today. We have instructor extraordinaire, senior directing instructor here at the New York Film Academy Nick Sivakumaran. How you doing, Nick?

Pretty good. How are you doing, Dave?

I am excellent. So the audience should know, Nick and I have known each other for a while our entire time in Los Angeles.

That’s right.

Went to USC together. We’ve been teaching here together ever since I stopped. He still continues to teach. I now do this stuff. We’ll cut that out.

Yeah. We’ve no yeah from the East Coast all the way to the West Coast.

Yeah.

Just like John McClane.

Exactly, I’m from Jersey though. He’s he’s he’s a New Yorker, but not not New York City.

I lived in the city.

Did you live in the city.

I lived I was in town, Glen Oaks. I lived all over, but then we moved to Rockland County.

Oh, nice. How old were you when you did that?

Ten.

Okay. And here we are today. Here to talk to you about a movie of our youth, Die Hard.

Yippee ki ya motherfucker.

Just an awesome action packed romantic love story as we’ve discovered Christmas movie, romantic love story, a you know a film for for everyone.

Perfectly described. One of my favorites.

So tell me when you first saw it. Like, how old were you when you saw Die Hard? What was the.

This will age me but I was 15 years old. I saw it. I don’t know if it was opening weekend, but I saw it with my dad and my neighbor. And it was probably one of the first rated R movies. I don’t know how I convinced my father to take us to see it, but.

Do you want to know what my first rated R movie was that my parents took me to unknowingly.

What.

Flashdance.

Yes. Wait Flashdance was rated R. Yeah it was rated R.

Yeah.

Okay. That’s unknowingly.

Yeah. I mean.

Flashdance.

So my mom my mom was a dancer and she’s like, oh it’s a movie about dancing.

That’s awesome.

So I was like I think 8. I don’t remember how old I was but first of all, I think we could do this is like a Christmas podcast, even though Bruce Willis didn’t think it was a Christmas movie, apparently.

Is that what he said?

Yeah. That’s apparently like there’s.

Yeah, but I don’t think it was designed as a Christmas. It came out in the summer. Right. So it wasn’t designed as a Christmas movie, but it is the best Christmas movie ever.

No, totally. I was listening like even the from the very beginning. He asked for Christmas music. Guys like.

He’s like this is Christmas.

Do you got any Christmas music.

This is Christmas music.

Wait. So how? Because I know when we’re talking about what movie to choose. And right and I was. You said I think you said 80s films.

Yeah. Like 80s, 80s, 90s, 80s.

I got to tell you, because whenever, you know, the first day of class, whenever we talk to students about, you know, talk about like your favorite films or films that have influenced you and stuff. I always say die hard. And it’s sad that now most of my students have no idea what I’m talking about. And I have to explain, I go die hard or we talk about directors and I mention John McTiernan and no one knows him. And when I mentioned Predator and and they go oh yeah yeah yeah, of course they know that.

So they know, yeah, well, I guess that’s been remade right there’s been.

Probably yeah. But die hard’s got like five of them now, right. So you’d think they would know that.

So they just they don’t know the series or they haven’t seen the first one.

I don’t know. But then it’s also like, you know, everyone sits there and they go around the room. They’re like, you know, mean streets and taxi driver and Pulp Fiction. And I always I talk about like Bridge on the River Kwai and Casablanca and Die Hard. And they’re like, who is this teacher?

All right. So, yeah, I mean, that’s why die hard.

Two things. One. I mean, I think it’s the nostalgia, right? Like, I was 15 years old. I saw it with my dad and my neighbor was one of the first films I saw rated R film in the theater. And it was so violent. While my father you know, he had no idea. He just took us to the movie. And I remember still thinking it was the greatest movie I ever saw when I was 15. And I would just watch it constantly. So I think it goes back to that time period. But then it holds up. And I think it’s the I think it’s the best action film ever made. That’s why.

All right. I mean, I just watched it again last night. Obviously, we’re the same age I grew up with it. It’s an amazing film. I think so. But like, what about it? I mean, I want to break all that down.Yeah what about it holds up?

Well, you know, when I say holds up. I think it’s it’s so. It’s so well constructed. I love how everything just works together. The plants and payoffs. It’s such a self-contained film. Right. Just also just, you know, I mean, literally self-contained in that building. And, you know, the story works so well and so many different levels.

It it’s such a good story. And like I forgot that the story’s about. It’s like the building and the theivery, the theivery, the robbery, all of it’s like second place to this romantic.

It is it’s romantic, right?

Not only is it romantic, cause it’s funny there’s a lot of things that don’t play to today. I thought.

Like, what.

Alright so like in the very beginning. The woman’s like, can I have a drink? And then Holly turns to her and she’s like, oh, yeah. You know, you’re you’re almost she’s just about to give birth. She’s like, yeah. Go. Go ahead. Have a drink.

Jenny, it’s five forty. Go join the party. Have some champagne. You’re making me feel like Ebenezer Scrooge.

Thanks a lot Ms. Genero. Do you think the baby can handle a little sip?

That baby’s ready to tend bar.

That’s true.

Like you can’t do that. Honestly, like in the party, when I was watching the party, there’s only one African-American character and he’s the guy serving drinks.

Oh, really.

Yeah. In the party. So like there were little things.

The terrorists are more diverse, I think.

Yeah. Yeah absolutely.

Oh that’s interesting.

But like, honestly, on the flip side, I was thinking like you look at Holly and she is I mean, the whole thing is predicated on the idea of this woman who is not going to just. She has her own career. She travels across the country with their kids. He’s this old fashioned dude who wants her to come back. And ultimately, he goes to her in the end.

Yeah.

But I interrupted you. You were so. Yeah. What. The greatest.

I don’t know. You know, and it’s again, like I do think there’s so much nostalgia there. And like, you know, you just go back to that. That summer like being a teenager. Watching that. But the fact that it plays now, like we just mentioned like Christmas it plays every Christmas. Right. Just nonstop. I saw it when did Alan Rickman die. He when Alan Rickman passed away. There was a retrospective on his work and I saw a double feature of Die Hard and Robin Hood, prince of theives,.

He was. He was great in it.

Yeah, but it was just like, you know, like the ultimate villain. And watching Die Hard and especially 35 film print. You know, I saw that and I was like, oh, my God, I love this. Just like how I you know, I used to Robin Hood. Not so much.

Yeah no.

That was but when I was I was watching yesterday and I had it with the commentary on with John McTiernan. And it was it was so like and I was sitting there going like I’ve never seen this with the commentary. And I’ve had this DVD or different versions of it Blu ray, whatever, for so long. I’ve never heard his commentary, but I don’t know. Sometimes, you know, you have some really good ones. This guy. He gave some good feedback here and there. But there was it wasn’t ultimately.

Yeah, I don’t.

I don’t think it was enough.

I don’t remember a lot of like commentaries I’ve watched where I’ve been like, I really learned something.

Yeah. Because a lot of times I think it’s they’re sitting around watching it and like reminiscing about what happened on set or they’re just joking around they’re drunk or something. There’s there’s rare commentaries that work. This one, though, is him and the production designer. So the production designer’s going on about of course, production design and Fox Plaza, which that’s another thing I think why this film, why I love it so much, is living in the West Side every day I drive by the 405, whatever the 10 and I see the building and I’m always like, Nakatomi Plaza.

Right is it is. So even though the base of it, where like the guy, that’s all the same with the building there, right?

I’m pretty sure. I’m pretty sure they actually didn’t they. Oh man I don’t know enough about that. I thought they blew up like the first or second floor because it was in construction when they shot it there.

Oh right.

Yeah.

Okay.

They were under construction or just building it. So they were like, you know, we could do whatever we want to the building I guess.

It’s weird for like the first two years here, I would pass by that building and I’d be like, I know it. That’s from. That’s a familiar building. I don’t I don’t know when it finally clicked, I’m like, die hard. The other thing I do want to say is on the flip side, I did notice there are three African-American characters, well-placed. One guy is, you know, of course, Alan Rickman’s second. But then there was also forgot his name in the limo.

Argyle. I’m your limo driver.

Oh Argyle.

Argyle.

And then Sergeant Powell a hugely important character.

And you had Agent Johnson. Remember that guy.

Oh, God. Yeah.

I’m Agent Johnson. This is Special Agent Johnson.

Oh how you doing?

No relation.

The other agent Johnson.

Yeah the other agent Johnson. And it’s something it’s so funny because I I still I don’t know, I quote the movie. And when I was watching it yesterday, I was thinking like there’s other lines that came up and I was like, oh, that’s a pretty good line. I didn’t even think about that. But there’s the line that I quote all the time is the I was in junior high dickhead. Remember that line. And I say that. And no one knows what I’m talking about. I just I say it to Rick Ross a lot, actually. He’s old.

And well, the thing like. And it’s it’s funny because again I just watched it last night. And at the time I was like, yeah, because this guy is old. And now it’s like, oh, my God, I’m old because. So what were they referring to is one guy says.

Just like fuckin Saigon ay slick.

And then his partner, Agent Johnson, says.

I was in junior high dickhead.

And I gotta to tell you. It came back in. Which one was it? The fourth one. Live free or die hard? I remember there was like this one line where he said something like someone said hi I’m Agent Johnson and you just saw Bruce Willis give him a look.

Oh really.

And I laughed. And I’m looking around, like, I don’t think anyone gets this in the theater. Like, how come there’s no diehard fans like literally?

That’s a great moment when the because like, you have this asshole head cop who comes in and screws everything up. But when he turns, he goes, we’re gonna need two new FBI guys.

I guess we’re going to need some new FBI agents. That’s awesome.

We’re gonna need some more FBI guys I guess.

So John McTiernan did this first one, he also directed the third one, and everyone like loves the third one. I didn’t like it at all. And I remember clearly being so excited to see it.

What was the remind me?

Third one was in New York City. And it’s him and Samuel Jackson running around defuzing bombs. And it’s Hans’s brother,.

Right.

Right? And I was like, what thehell? What is this movie? This isn’t. And I think what I was annoyed about was that diehard was about the wrong guy in the wrong place at the wrong time. Right. And also somebody like trapped in a building or an airport or a plane or you know whatever, all those variations of that. And New York City just running around like it didn’t make any sense. And after I saw the movie, I read somewhere that it was originally a script for Lethal Weapon it was supposed to be a lethal weapon. I was like, that makes sense, but die hard. And then the movie or I think in the beginning of the movie he’s not with his wife, with Holly. Right. And like the whole.

Right. Right. Right.

And actually, even now, what is die hard five, six, whatever came out, divorced. They don’t even talk anymore.

Yeah see. You’re totally right

Like that defeats the purpose right if the whole.

No. And it’s something I’d never thought of, which is you’re right. The first one, he’s stuck in this building. The second one he’s stuck in an airport. And so you get that joke of like, oh, here we go again.

Exactly.

But like I mean, maybe you can get away with a third. But you’re right that.

But the third one they tried to tie in it was Hans’s brother out for revenge. And like and now he’s back in New York City. Right. So I don’t know.

Well and we were talking about it earlier, which is that the coolest thing about this film I think for me when I was re watching, it was how much time the whole setup wasn’t devoted to the terrorists that happened like this it was. You know, it completely was about his relationship with her, about the complexity of it. It was. And that how this ultimately brought them back together.

And you know, and the first one it did that, the second one also, she’s up in the plane.

Mm hmm.

And that’s why he’s trying to bring her down.

That’s right. Why would you ruin that. This is turning into a critique.

No no. But it’s fun, but I think yeah maybe she. What’s her name? Bonnie Bedelia wanted more money to be in it or I don’t know.

That’s okay. He could refer to her.

Yeah he could he could? But you know, what’s interesting is the first one like what you’re saying about the setup is that’s that’s why I love. I don’t know I love the script because there were so many plants right throughout it. And all these moments of exposition and the way it’s like the opening they’re on the you know, we were just watching right now that he’s on the plane. And we find out that he’s a cop from New York City like the first or second line. Right. When he’s talking to the dude next to him. And like the whole thing with Argyle. Argyle makes fun of him saying, oh, you thought she was just going to come running back to you, right?

Why didn’t you come with her man? What’s up?

Cause I’m a New York cop I got a six month backlog of New York scumbags I’m still trying to put behind bars. I can’t just pick up and go that easy.

In other words, you thought she wasn’t gonna make it out here and she’d come crawling on back to you. So why bother to pack right?

Like I said you’re very fast Argyle.

And Gennaro, like her last name, was not in the. You know, is not in the directory.

No, it’s tight.

It is.

I was realizing that like everything. You know what’s crazy? My entire life. Like every time I take a flight, I’m always like, take off your shoes.

You want to know the secret to surviving air travel after you get where you’re going. Take off your shoes and your socks. Then you walk around on the rug barefoot and make fists with your toes.

And I don’t.

Does it work?

You know, not really. I’d rather take a shower, go to sleep but like I would do that. That was always in my mind every time I’d get to the hotel room and I forgot till I just watched again I’m like. Oh, yeah, that’s for that’s for this movie. That’s what that’s from. And then I’m like, I can’t believe I’ve been thinking this my entire life for plot point for a way for this guy to not have any shoes the entire movie.

Genius but it’s great though. Again, it’s like snuck in there. Right. And then you realize. Oh, yeah. That’s why he’s barefoot.

Yeah yeah.

And the Rolex. All right. That’s another. Do you remember the Rolex?

I yeah yeah.

So in the beginning they yeah. She’s there for the Japanese company. And that guy. What’s Hart Bochner’s?

Ellis.

Ellis.

Ellis.

Ellis the you know who’s doing coke on her desk or whatever.

I was just making a call and this was the nearest phone.

But when he yeah, he’s bragging about the Rolex. And the Rolex is the final thing that Hans is holding onto on the roof. Right when he’s falling off and he unbuckle unclasps the Rolex. Genius.

I didn’t I never put that together. That’s great.

Let me ask you something so. What do you think the end of the film? You have this great moment. Hans falls off. All that stuff and then you have this main bad guy coming back to life.

Yeah how does that happen? Is that what you’re. I have no idea. He’s hanging dead on the highest floor. And what somehow falls? Or did they bring him down?

.No. He came down himself with a gun to take out john McClane.

I mean I.

I think that’s that’s my weakest part of the film.

I agree. But it does allow Sergeant Powell his redemptive moment.

I know.

Which is funny because I kind of like. I love that he was like this pacifist. He had this bad experience and only in the 80s are they like, no, no, we got to give him redemption. He needs to shoot someone dead at the end of the movie.

He’s got to draw his gun again. But it’s what it’s great because it happens. Also, the first like that moment’s beautiful. It’s the first time they see each other. Right. Like they’ve been talking all this time and they see each other. And then when the guy shows up, I think still when I watch it, I remember even the first time you know I’m like 15 watching it. And I did feel like, come on, this is crazy. Like the music plays, he comes out slow motion, out of the fog, you know. And then Al shoots him and we don’t even see I think we hear the gunshots. Right. And then it’s that big moment of seeing him. And I don’t know, I still when I watch it now, I’ll still watch when. What’s the guy’s name? Karl. Right. Who? The bad guy. I think it’s Karl. When Karl gets.

Yeah yeah.

When he gets killed, when he’s hanging. I’ll stop watching and pause and I go, yeah. He’s not really dead. He doesn’t look like he’s his neck’s broken and he’s hanging there that long.

Well I mean clearly he’s not. But I. Yeah.

Well I don’t know.

Everyone walks past him. He’s just hanging there.

But that’s. Exactly everyone comes running by and he was still hanging there oh damn. That makes it worse. But I did. I do look at it going oh man everything. I enjoy everything in the film. That’s a one part I’m like it’s there just for his redemption.

Yeah. But it’s still a great redemption. And like, you want it for him and it’s a happy moment. So I don’t. I forgive it very quickly.

OK. All right. That’s fine.

You know something else I noticed that I like. Cause you see I mean, this is this disaster film, final ambulance, people kissing moment, which like is in every movie. And it’s always almost handled horribly.

Yeah.

Like I love that they get into the limo that’s been waiting for them the whole time and that the kiss is handled in the window as they’re driving away.

Oh that’s great.

You know, like.

That’s classic yeah.

Yeah.

And then it wait. Isn’t Argyle. He’s like, it’s snowing cause all the papers flowing coming down again. Christmas movie come on. That is. No no I was thinking that die hard 2. They do the same thing. They’re kissing and the explosion behind him.

Mm hmm that’s right.

Again it’s about it’s a romance. You know, my wife has watched it but I remember once really pitching it hard as a romance. She goes diehard. I know what die hard is. I go you don’t know it the way it’s supposed to be. It’s a romance.

Yeah, it is a romance. I totally agree.

But, you know what? Because I was thinking about that driving here like okay why do I like die hard so much? Right. But part of it is that that every man. Right. Bruce Willis is like he’s could be any of us, even though I mean, he’s a cop a New York City cop, but he’s not like when you think about Rambo and Commando. Right. You really think about Stallone and Schwarzenegger. A thousand bullets running by them, right. They don’t get shot. They don’t get hurt or anything. I mean, this guy’s bleeding his feet. He’s got shot, whatever, like he’s injured.

And he keeps having these heartfelt moments with with Sergeant Powell.

Yeah.

Yeah. He’s not. And in fact, I noticed they make fun of. Which is what I wanted to like. You know, he’s this obviously this man who’s. But I like that you point that out because the the the Superman with the you know they they come in and the guy gets pricked by the rose. And he’s like do you remember what he says. He’s like, ow that hurts. Or it’s like.

Wait who said that? One of the.

One of the special forces or SWAT guys.

Oh yeah. Yeah I do remember that.

And they kind of – they’re just all made to be like this tough group of guys who are just fools at the end of the day so.

Yeah.

Yet, you know, having this hyper masculine guy be the.

What. But you know, when you think about like just the opening, I think it’s like the opening shot. Is he’s scared to fly. You know, like you see him like. I think it’s his hand, you see his hand gripping the armrest and he’s scared. And then we find out he’s a cop. But that’s why I think it works so well when he does that whole you know, when he’s in the thingy. What’s it called?

Oh, the the air duct.

Well yeah the classic line in the air duct about like oh just the wrong place or whatever. Wrong guy at the wrong time.

Come to California.

Oh yeah. Have a few laughs.

Come out to California. We’ll get together. Have a few laughs. Now I know what a TV dinner feels like.

Did you so like when you watched die hard. Do you remember. Were you a moonlighting fan?

I was a moonlighting fan.

OK.

Moonlighting came first.

Yeah.

Yeah so I don’t remember how I felt about, you know, it worked, though. I do remember. I don’t think I had any problem transferring into him as that character,.

Because I didn’t I didn’t watch moonlighting, so I didn’t know him. You know, I just I was like Bruce. I had no idea who he was at all when I saw him. But I think. I remember talking to people and like especially adults at that time, they all loved him so much from moonlighting, so it was like this similar character, right?

Yeah. Yeah. He was like a private eye.

Slick talking and you know.

Yeah.

Yeah. That’s something that I don’t know. I think it’s the Bruce. Like whenever I think about Bruce Willis. I always think about him like in Die Hard. So when you see him now. You know, I saw what death wish or I saw these other films with him where he’s just like too masculine, like he was in The Expendables and he’s too much of a tough guy. And I’m like, that’s not the that’s not John McClane. That’s not the Bruce Willis, you know, like Live Free or Die Hard is like the fourth one. And he is he’s too much of a badass in that.

Well, yeah. I feel like there was an episode in the office about this.

You know what here’s the thing about die hard four die hard one. The original John McClane is just this normal guy. He’s just a normal New York City cop who gets his feet cut and gets beat up. But he’s an everyday guy in Die Hard 4 he is jumping a motorcycle into a helicopter in the air. You know he’s invincible. It’s just sort of lost from die hard 1. It’s not Terminator.

That’s kind of I mean, I don’t want to start sounding like an old fuddy duddy, but it’s like, isn’t that where all these shows movies are going like that whole romance, that whole thing that connected me to it, that brought like humor and life to it. Like, I mean, so I just saw John Wick 3.

Yeah.

And like I mean, yeah. Look, it is an amazing act of choreography. I have never seen anything like that before, but like there’s not. I love dogs. I don’t want to watch a man’s serial murder. Thousands of people.

Well, the first one, though. Do you like the first one?

Honestly like again, I think.

The choreography.

Yeah cause I might have like this third one even more than the first one.

Really?

Yeah cause I didn’t love the first one. So like I mean the third one.

I see I enjoyed I mean I love dogs. But the first one because it was the dog, but it was the the dead wife. You know, again, like that’s kind of what we connected to. But then it just went like, you know, went into that world of assassins. And I didn’t really. The second one, I can’t even remember the third one when the third one ended. I could be honest. I was like, are you kidding me? There’s gonna be another one. Like, he’d just bounced off the floor like 10 stories up, like. So. Yeah. You’re like, you know, that’s kind of like that superhuman. You know, you’re talking about.

Yeah.

That John McClane wasn’t. I think that’s what you need in these films for us to connect to. Right. Like to emotionally connect to them. So I was gonna ask you something about Bruce Block’s class. We took visual expression as Bruce Block.

Yes, we did.

He spoke in that class about diehard. And when he was talking about just visual expression and contrast and infinity and I remember at first I went. This is nonsense. Like directors don’t do all this. Come on. And then he proved it right when he’d show us clips and everything. And then he talked about Die Hard. And that’s like when I really paid attention to him. He talked about Jan de Bont the cinematographer, and about how he had red, white and blue in almost every image.

Do you remember this?

Yes.

Yeah it was really interesting. Just that whole patriotic Americans versus the Germans, you know. And and it was all about appealing to the subconscious, you know, because I didn’t notice that. But of course, we probably feel that way. Right. Which is what that whole class was about.

Yeah. Yeah.

I think that’s amazing. I mean, I talk about that when I discuss visual expression with my students and then we’ll go back. I mean, when I watch it, I’ll just look for it and I go, yeah, there’s a little red, white, and blue. But I don’t know. I don’t know. How do you know if it subconsciously affected you or not? But the fact that a DP like actually thought about doing that. That’s pretty cool.

Yeah, absolutely. Didn’t he. I’m trying to remember didn’t. Wasn’t there also something about like the structure versus chaos of it like that when the building was structured versus like towards the end everything is a little more Dutch angled. I didn’t even think about that.

Well you talk about that, but also much more handheld like it was much more hand-held moving shots. And it’s funny, in his commentary, he was talking about how traditionally we always have moving shots and we have to wait till the shot stops moving, then cut. Right. Or static to static shots moving to moving shots. And he said, you know, that’s crazy. We don’t have to do that. So I just cut whenever I want. And it’s mainly it cuts because he wants it to be dynamic and you know crazy. And I could see that happening, like you said, more towards the end, or just like in any action scene. Right. But yeah, there’s a lot of hand-held stuff at the end of the film.

Die Hard I think it felt very I mean, it’s an incredibly tight, incredibly structured movie.

Yeah.

Like you were saying like every especially in the opening like after a while. Like, I don’t know. There’s so much action that I start to. No I. It never loses its sense of humor. It never loses. Every one little thing like there’s not a wasted moment in that movie.

Yeah, exactly. That’s exactly what I would think. And that’s when I. Yeah. When I think about all the scenes, like when we talk to our students, when we say, you know, what’s the job of the scene? What’s the function of the scene? And right. And some scenes are repetitive. So they get rid of them either in writing it or in post. I don’t in die hard and I haven’t seen in the DVD like the deleted scenes. I’m curious.

Right.

Because it is so tight. Right. Like everything has to be in there. You know, you were talking before about with masculinity. What about like the whole cowboy theme in the film? Like how they’re always talking about cowboys.

Yippee ki yay.

Well, that’s the big one. But from the reasoning when he like.

He’s Roy.

Roy, right.

You know my name. But who are you? Just another American who saw too many movies as a child? Another orphan of a bankrupt culture who thinks he’s John Wayne. Rambo. Marshal Dillon.

I was always kind of partial to Roy Rogers, actually I really liked those sequence shirts.

Well, that also goes with what you were saying with kind of the America vs. the European thing, too. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. When when Hans. When he starts giving his demands. Right. What he wants. And it’s all the fake demands. It’s all about like international terrorists being released.

Right.

There’s no I don’t think there’s any like, you know, white supremacist. Right or he wanted Americans. It’s all like he said something about Sri Lanka or Iran. I don’t know what. You know, like everywhere else. So, again, it does go back to that America. And then when the guy talking about Saigon and stuff right.

Right. Right.

It’s all about America. And even at the end like that last he says this line then about. When he’s got the gun strapped to his back, right taped his back and he says this thing about, oh, you think you’re John Wayne going off in the sunset with Grace Kelly. And he says that was. That’s Gary Cooper.

Still the cowboy. Mr. McClain, Americans all alike. Well this time, John Wayne does not walk off into the sunset with Grace Kelly.

That’s Gary Cooper asshole.

But that’s from like high noon. And I remember thinking, you know, again, I was like, oh, that’s high noon that’s one guy standing, you know, facing down all the villains. Right. All the bad guys.

Alright so.

So yeah I think it just goes back to that cowboy theme about, you know.

Well, so that’s interesting.

It’s black and white right.

Like, look at look at. I mean, yes, he’s European, but like, he’s German. I mean, if I think about old Westerns and kind of like the German with like that facial hair and the like is do you feel like Hans Gruber is in, like this is in any way a Western? Hans Gruber is like. You know like stealing from.

I think at the end when he’s got them, he’s got Holly with him, right? Like you see that classic showdown right.

It’s a bank robbery. He’s got bearer bonds.

I am interested in the six hundred and forty million dollars in negotiable bearer bonds that you have locked in your vault.

Like that is very Western.

I mean, he. When John McClane takes him out and Al takes out Karl. Like the same it looked like, you know, a fast draw. I think it.

Absolutely.

They didn’t show it. But that’s what has to be what happens right.

And it’s a revolver.

Yeah, exactly. Six shooter. Yeah there’s the Western theme. There’s the I mean, I do think it goes back to this America all about patriotism. You know, with the red, white and blue.

I mean, it’s about a New Yorker who went out west and got in a gunfight. Yeah totally.

Oh that’s interesting, I didn’t think about that.

They bring in gunships. Like what?

But they say that just. They’re like predictable it’s the FBI. And like they know that we’re gonna send them. We’re gonna wire C4 on the roof and send the hostages there. You know, like I think that’s why I like what we talk about, how tight it is. It’s when we watch films now and I always watch it and I go, yeah, that was fun to see. But then when we start analyzing it, it’s like, what the hell is your plan? Like like that was I don’t even understand what they were doing there. I feel like die hard, like they had a plan. Like I thought Hans. He knew every step of the way, like what was going to happen. Right like cut the power and the locks open. Right. I think that was brilliant. And that’s and that was also Alan Rickman’s first movie, which is insane,.

Right. I mean, I almost wonder now, like now the movie would be about Hans Gruber and his group.

Oh, my God.

Stealing the money and getting away with it.

Yeah.

Like, I don’t know. Maybe it’s gone too far.

I can see that movie.

Right. Because it was he was very Ocean’s Eleven about the whole thing.

He was. But it was also what was interesting. Was like Ocean’s Eleven. It was all in his head. Like he didn’t share that with anyone.

Right.

Like you remember the other his henchmen, the computer expert. Right. He didn’t know. He was like, I can’t get through this lock. And he’s like, you asked for a miracle. I give you the FBI.

Asked for a miracle Theo. I give you the FBI.

It’s like you didn’t think to share that information at all. So these guys have blindly followed him. Right.

Right. Right.

That’s that’s a good leader.

Yeah I mean, what a great. I mean, I just think about his first real interaction after walking in and threatening people with guns is he he starts talking about the the suit like.

Love it.

It’s like apparently Arafat also you know gets his suit made at the same place in London and then he shoots the guy.

What and again, which is. It just wasn’t – you’re not like the classic James Bond villain, you know, is was like a different type of a bad guy.

Right.

Just like how we you know, you’re saying like it’s a different kind of hero. It’s not Schwarzeneggar and Stallone. And in those movies, you had the same bad guys. Right.

Right.

I mean, I can’t even remember. They’re all the same. This is the same type of thing. I think, like it’s.

You you did have the Karl. There’s always a Karl in every movie.

There’s gotta be the sidekick right.

Yeah right who has the final. He’s the really scary one to fight with.

Yeah, that’s true.

I’m thinking of commando and there’s like that knife fight.

Oh yeah, that’s right. Even with Karl they’re like that whole thing about he’s not just like the main henchman. He hates him because this guy killed his brother. Right that was a big moment right when he was.

Right.

Kills the brother who puts the ho ho ho, whatever and then. That was a good moment also.

Yeah, it turned Karl into this.

Yes. So then he hated the guy like he didn’t care about Hans anymore. He just wanted to kill him.

There was that great moment when Holly realizes that John is still alive because Karl goes insane and he starts throwing something like he’s still alive.

She goes only one man can make someone that angry. Like yeah

He’s still alive. Only John can drive somebody that crazy.

So what I mean, because when I think about Die Hard, it was kind of that first. Like, I mean. All right. That’s not true. There’s always like disaster movies like in an airplane. But when I what I guess in my memory, like the terrorist movie in a building, it was like when the building blew up. I will say part of me, like gasped I forgot that part where they blew up that floor.

Oh, yeah.

And now, you know, since 9/11, I saw I was and I guess I’ve seen it since, but I don’t know if I’ve watched the whole movie through. But when that happened, I definitely I was like.

Cringed.

Oh, my God. Yeah I can’t believe they did that. But. All right. So you see that I mean, I think of like die hard on a battleship with Steven Seagal. There was like, what are the other movies that kind of die hard that came off of that.

Die hard on a bus is pretty much speed, right?

Speed yeah. Jon de Bont who is the DP for that.

I know that he did. Him and McKiernan did Hunt for Red October also.

Right great movie.

Die Hard on a plane was like executive decision with Kurt Russell.

Executive Decision.

Or Air Force One.

Air Force One.

Die hard in the white house. Can you say that die hard in the White House is kind of like.

Yeah.

White house down or what’s other one. Olympus has fallen.

Olympus has fallen.

Also, I think it’s anytime someone is just trapped somewhere where terrorists attack. That’s a die hard. But it’s one location. Right. Which again, is my problem with die hard three and four and five and six, whatever. But yeah die hard 2. In an airport.

Home alone.

There it is. Die hard is basically a remake of home alone.

I love. Ah shoot. What’s the one on the ship?

Under seige.

Under seige. I love under seige.

But that is such like that is the exact die hard on a boat.

Totally.

Because it’s not only just he’s the cook, but he’s like a cook who is like a Navy SEAL. Like, I don’t even know why I can’t remember the story but why is he a cook? It makes no sense he’s not even like undercover. Like at least Speed when they say die hard on a bus. It’s not really because there’s a whole other thing going on in that film right.

Yeah, yeah.

But just the fact that you’re trapped in one location, that’s kind of the phrase die hard on whatever.

Yeah. And I mean that. But that speaks to this movie which.

Yeah.

You know, everything became die hard on a.

So that’s interesting. Like when you think about John McKiernan, I told you, I talk about it with my students. They’ve no clue who he is. I start explaining it just with die hard and Hunt for Red October and Predator. And then I stop because you were like. What was it 10 years ago or five years ago when he got arrested? He went to jail. It was this whole big thing with the jail for wiretapping an agent. And yeah.

He wiretapped an agent?

He wiretapped someone. I don’t know if it was an agent or producer.

I mean, that’s horrible. You shouldn’t do that. But like, I could totally understand why he’d want to wiretap an agent.

He was part of some huge case and he went to jail. But before that, though, I mean, he after these huge movies, the 80s, early 90s, and then he did this film called Roller Ball, which is a remake.

The remake oh the remake.

Awful. But I don’t think he’s done a film in 10, 15 years. So I don’t know. I still talk about him like, oh, this guy’s a great director, but I don’t know what he’s doing now so.

I feel like wiretapping an agent, though that’s not bad enough to not talk about him in a class that almost gives him. That’s character.

Oh man.

I never thought of it as a Christmas movie until someone said it. And then it’s like it’s it’s obviously a Christmas movie.

But even that. Wait you said that Bruce Willis says it’s not.

Yeah. I there. I saw some, like, YouTube thing where he said, no, of course it’s not.

Now, please listen very carefully. Die hard is not a Christmas movie. It’s a god damn Bruce Willis movie. So a yippee ki yay to all of you mother fuckers. Good night.

But like I think even the director has said I think I think he has.

Because, I mean, I know it was a summer movie. All right. But what is it AMC or FX or whatever channel it’s always a punishment. Christmas now.

Right.

Always just on repeat.

I mean it’s not a Christmas story but it’s definitely.

But that’s. But when you think about it you said it. It’s about a guy trying to reconnect with his wife. Right. Travelling across the country. Like that’s like all these holiday movies like planes, trains and automobiles. You know, it’s like it’s always like a almost like a roadtrip film. But all in one building.

And a guy who like honestly is not he doesn’t come across. I forgot this. As like a good guy, like his kids, he’s like. He’s like, I don’t know if I’ll even see my kids.

Yeah he’s not. She’s like, our kids would love to see you. I’m in Pomona. You know that in that scene when he’s talking with her. There’s a moment when, like her assistant comes running in and then she’s like, oh, sorry. And she looks at him. I don’t know if you remember this. And he just goes he gives her a look again because he’s kind of a dick the whole time right.

Yeah, right.

All right. So I’m going to ask you question. Define the three act structure for die hard.

You’re putting me on the spot. All right. So.

Cause I was thinking about it.

I mean, so. All right. So it basically the second they walk out of the elevator and shoot up, we’re in the second act. Right.

No. For me, the end of the first act is right when he runs. Like they take hostage his wife hostage and he’s free. I mean, he’s running with the gun and barefoot.

I guess what I’m saying is like, that’s the end of it. That’s.

That’s the end of first act.

Yeah. Like when they’ve taken they come out, they take it.

Done.

Yes.

Conflict is locked.

So.

Inciting incident.

Oh the inciting incident is. Who comes in first? I don’t even. Oh god, I’ve got to go back and remember.

It’s interesting because because usually I think the inciting incident. Right. It’s one introduction of the main conflict. So I think it’s when the bad guys arrive. But that doesn’t affect the main character yet.Oh, that’s interesting.

You know so. Like when we see Hans walking into the building or showing up in the truck or whatever it is, because otherwise it’s just a regular you know guy coming to see his wife at a Christmas party. So it almost no, at first no.

No this is good.

No, no. Because part of what I was thinking, I didn’t look at the two hours, the movie’s over two hours, but I thought at first the inciting incident would be was when that happened, when the terrorists take over the building. And that’s the main conflict, right, introduction of the main conflict is there.

Unless you’re saying like the relationship’s the main conflict.

No, no. When the terrorists when when Hans comes out of the elevator, machine guns go off. John McClane runs.

They now have the building beginning of the second act.

But is that. I feel like that’s too far into the movie to be the point of attack. That should be the inciting.

Oh, I don’t yeah I don’t think that’s the inciting incident.

Yeah so yeah. So that should be.

So what happens before? How do they infiltrate? Exactly.

You just see them. They show up slow, like, you know, the truck comes and goes under underground. They just walk through the front doors.

So Kareem rebounds, right. Feeds worthy on the break.

I think it’s like he shoots. He scores. He. They kill a couple of the lobby attendants.

Boom. Two points. We’re in.

Well, that’s what makes. That’s interesting because that’s kind of what I saying earlier, it’s like they’re not really part of the story until they’re part of the story.

Yeah. Yeah.

So like unless we say the inciting incident, nobody did anything stupid earlier. Nobody like let them in. Nobody.

Yeah.

It’s the 80s. So it’s kind of like just just type in your name and go up to the floor you need.

Well I think he had. But it’s also supposed to be like Christmas. So it’s dead like there’s no one around. Right. Like it was abandoned when they walked in.

Right. So is the inciting incident the second he shoots the guard and then they just basically go and take over. To me, that’s you’re right. That’s the same thing. What is the inciting incident. Well, I never even thought about that.

Just because, you know, when we think inciting is like the moment the conflicts introduced.

Right.

So to me, that is that moment, right. When these bad guys show up. But it’s too far. Like if you look at the timeline of the film, isn’t it within 20 minutes when.

Well, yeah, I mean it’s supposed to be but it doesn’t have to be.

Yeah. But that’s why. That’s why like the way I always learned it right, like, you know, the point of attack, right the inciting incident being when the conflicts introduced. So at that moment when they show up, just bear with me if that’s the moment they show up. And Bruce Willis has a gun and he runs. Is that the introduction of the conflict, when they took over the building and then is the end of act one the conflict locked when? When what? When’s the conflict. Like, you know, because he could just call the cops, right? Like the police don’t listen to him. So now is that when the conflict

So does he. Is he the initiator of the conflict in a way.

Yeah.

Well. Hold, hold on. I got you. All right. No, no, no, no, no, no. I like this. So they enter the building inciting incident. That’s part of the story.

Mm hmm.

The moment Hans Gruber shoots and kills Takagi.

Takagi yeah.

I’m telling you, you’re just going to have to kill me.

Okay.

The second he does that.

That’s the conflict is locked.

I think that yeah, because Bruce Willis witnesses it. It changes everything. Now his wife is in mortal threat. Now they all are. And I think at that. Oh and then they’ve heard him. So now they like they hear and so then now they go after him. They’re going after him also.

Yeah.

I could see. And that’s the thing I could see.

And that’s when he decides to take action. And then he calls the police.

Yeah.

Which then brings the police and probably.

Well that’s when the police don’t listen to him. Whatever’s going on. So, yeah, that’s why to me, I could see that being the end of act one. You know, that’s when he shoots the first terrorist and he kills him. You know, the end of. Because the conflict is locked now. He’s got no choice. He’s trapped in this building and he’s got to save his wife.

Oh, okay. Yes.

That’s how I look at the end of act one like that adventure begins or whatever right.

So starting with him throwing the.

Like just killing the Karl’s brother.

Karl’s brother.

Yeah. That that. And it’s interesting because when we talk about.

Oh that’s good.

No but when we talk about how well-structured everything is. But it wasn’t like Star Wars, like boom inciting incident and end of act one. You know, like I really I was.

Right.

That’s why I asked you because I was like, I’m not really sure.

I thought you were gonna ask me about the third act that I was like, oh, boy, here we go.

But then, well yeah. When you go to, like, what’s the end of the second act then? Like, when do we go into the third act?

I mean, to me the third act was always just Karl jumping up again like I feel like it has the shortest third act like because I mean.

No but. No, come on. Wait wait wait. Cause the climax is Hans. Right. Like when the shoot out and Hans falling out the window. Right. But the end of Act 2 is that moment when I thought it was gonna be when he’s pulling the glass out of his feet and the FBI agents show up. And he’s having. He’s basically saying goodbye to. He talks to Al and says, hey, tell my wife I love her and everything.

Tell her that that she is the best thing that ever happened to a bum like me. She’s heard me say I love you a thousand times. She never heard me say I’m sorry.

That’s a pretty low point. But then he goes out there and there’s the roof. And, you know, he jumps off the roof. The explosion.

Jumps off the roof, slams.

Hits the wall. Gets dragged down. Like crazy scene.

Shoots him.

Shoots the glass.

Falls into where? Back into the room that happens to be the floor he needs.

Suddenly there’s like a lake inside there.

Goes to the vault, shoots the one guy, has the two bullets, the gun behind his back.

That’s the best. Come on it’s the best scene

Shoots him, shoots Hans.

Yippee ki yay.

Hans fall off.

Shoots the one guy. And then he blows it right. And he goes happy trails Hans.

Happy trails Hans.

So yeah where? I mean, I see where there’s like a down moment when he calls, but like, where is that? Where’s the end of Act 2?

That’s why I think the end of Act 2 is after Hans gets away, right? That’s when he has Hans with him and they shoot the glass.

Shoot the glass.

And he’s pulling glass like he’s a mess like the guy. I don’t know if he got shot he got beat up. He’s got bleeding feet. And he tells Al to tell my wife I love her.

Yeah, definitely. That’s.

And I can’t he can’t say Holly, my wife, who’s here, because Hans still doesn’t know. Right. Remember, Hans thinks that he was a guest of Ellis. Yeah, that’s where I think the end of act 2 is, but it’s it’s not such a low, low point. Like, you know, like.

Yeah. But thinking about it, it is low. And not to say this about the movie, I do remember thinking when I watched it. Like God, he seems awfully down like.

Yeah.

He survived all like, I don’t know. This is the first time like it’s just suddenly in that moment.

But it’s also that’s the moment we find out about Al that Al shot the kid like that’s when he reveals all that information. So that’s depressing from both ends right. Like it’s got to be the low point.

Is there anything on the web that says like this is the act structure for.

Let me pull it up.

I’m curious. Yeah.

We’ll rerecord this with our knowledge.

Exactly. Well, that’s obvious. As an expert in the field Nick.

No seriously. What do you got Kristian?

According to screenplayhowto.com it’s easy to interpret the first plot point as the takeover of Nakatomi plaza.

Yeah, we got that.

But that’s actually in the middle beat of Act 1.

They’re saying that’s the middle beat of Act 1.

Yeah. The true first plot point is the murder of the president.

Is what.

The murder of the president.

But that’s funny. That’s exactly what we just did. I first was like when they come in. I’m like, no, no, no. When they assassinate the guy. What’s the end of act 2.

End of act two is exactly what you were saying. When he’s talking about. In the bathroom talking about. Yeah.

Nice yeah. Then they have their I mean literally has that resolution. I think their resolution is Karl and you know.

Right.

Al’s redemption.

Oh. And this is the Bruce Block thing which is that you kind of know the climax. Is that visually it’s the most interesting thing. It built to that. And that’s why Karl’s shooting, despite my joking about it earlier. Isn’t really.

Yeah.

Because it’s a very simple final plot point.

Because that classic shot Hans falling off the roof. Right. Looking up or holding her watch and everything. I mean, that’s insane.

Yeah.

That close up and the slow motion. And then I remember cutting to the wide shot. We see him falling down. And then what’s his name says like hope that’s not a hostage.

Well I hope that’s not a hostage.

Even in such a such a dramatic moment, that guy just has to say anything, cause of breakfast club and we laugh. And you know what? When we think about bad guys, because we were talking about Hans being a great bad guy. But you have Paul Gleason and you have the other guy, William Atherton. He’s the guy who’s the newscaster. We didn’t even talk about him. He’s from Ghostbusters right.

Yeah, he’s always the bad guy.

So he again, like, that’s amazing that they have these character actors like that.

And like, so I’m watching it and I’m just like, God, they’re tying everything up. And as they’re leaving, I’m like, yeah. Oh, that reporter, I guess they don’t tie him up. And then Holly punches him in the face.

She punches. It’s awesome.

Now that it’s all over after this incredible ordeal. What are your feelings?

And like, you know what, we were just talking about how, you know, Hans doesn’t know Holly’s his wife. Right. But he finds out when that news show’s playing the guy’s interviewing the kids. Right. And then we see Holly watching it. And that’s when he knows.

You know your mom and dad are very important people. They’re very brave people. So is there something you’d like to say to them if they’re watching.

Come home.

Mrs. McLane. How nice to make your acquaintance.

After threatening the house sitter with immigration services.

You let me in right now or I call the INS. Comprende.

Oh, my God. That’s right. Of course, you’re gonna hate the. And he’s in the second one. Also, it’s classic. He happens to be on the plane with her in the second one.

That’s right. And he reports.

She tazes him right. It’s the same thing.

I Richard Thornburgh just happened to be here to put his life and talent on the line for humanity and country. And if this should be my final broadcast.

Amen to that, Dick.

So this one scene that I show from diehard to my students is always during my point of view lecture. And it’s the scene when he runs into Hans close to the roof and Hans pretends he’s a hostage.

Please god no. You’re one of them aren’t you. You’re one of them.

And we talk about point of view that when the whole film we’re identifying with Bruce Willis. But of course, we see Hans’s side of things as well. But when we have the two of them there. You actually are with Hans. Most of the time you’re with Hans and you’re going, oh, my God, don’t give him a gun, John. Don’t do you know, like. And then it switches when he says, you know, what’s your name? And he’s like, Bill. Bill. Clay.

Clay. Bill Clay.

And then it cuts to John McClane looking at this this roster, right.

And seeing Clay.

Seeing the name. So we talking about how directors do that shift the point of view back and forth. But it’s great because he totally has me. And then at the end, there’s no bullets in the gun. You’re like, wait. When did he know? Because it looked like he put the bullets in the gun when he gave it to him.

Oops. No bullets. Think I’m fucking stupid Hans.

Yeah so when did he know I was thinking that I was gonna ask you?

I think he doesn’t know but he just doesn’t trust them. So he doesn’t put bullets in the gun.

Yeah, because if he knows he wouldn’t go through the whole charade, it’ll just be like Hans. Bam. Right. Get my wife, you know. But that’s also. Yeah. That’s a that’s a great scene and beautiful shots and Dutch angles and you know, like. It’s a good scene to show the class because again, it’s not just action. There’s more character development and things like that.

There’s so much of this movie that’s not action. That’s character development. Like I feel so connected to the characters. You really care about Holly. You care they get back together. Yeah.

I even cared about Ellis.

Hey, John boy.

Like he’s making those mistakes you’re like no. Idiot.

And especially dude that scene when Ellis is like John, John. And then John’s like Ellis. Don’t do this, please, don’t do this.

Hans this asshole is not my friend. I just met him tonight. I don’t know him. Jesus Christ Ellis these people are going to kill you. Tell them you don’t know me.

John how can you say that after all these years? John.

You know, he’s like they don’t show him getting killed. Right. We hear it, but we see it through. Bruce Willis’s right. We see it through his face. And then I think we see his body come out. Right I’m like aw I like you Ellis. No it is. It’s true. Like the character development, because even with Holly, they show her being from the beginning. We know she’s a top person there right. They all respect her and the Rolex and the corner office. They show her being a leader with the hostages. Right. Like we have a pregnant lady. We need to do bathroom shifts, like she’s speaking up. And it’s kind of interesting also watching it as a New Yorker. And not knowing any like, you know, it’s different when you watch it when you come out here.

Absolutely.

Very different. Like because you see that when he when he arrives at the at the airport and some girl runs by and jumps in the guy’s arms and he’s like, Oh you know, California.

California.

California.

So we grew up not that far from each other. I mean I’m New Jersey and we moved out here at the same time. Did you have this image of California like has that gone away? Like even looking at this movie, because there was that couple was totally California. At another point, he’s walking in and someone’s like, chill, dude.

Hey Merry Christmas.

Jesus. Fucking California.

Like it’s like this constant making fun of California thing.

Yeah, I mean, I think that was the 80’s look at California. Right. Like I think now being out here. I’m used to it. But I do feel like whenever I go back to New York and when I fly back, I’m like, yeah, I’m back in L.A. I can tell as soon as you get in that airport, and you’re like, this is LA. You look around right.

No totally I feel exactly. So I’m here. I don’t see anything.

Yeah.

I go somewhere. I’m in New York. Everyone wearing black. I come back here. I go to a cafe and I’m like, she looks like she’s straight out of the 40s. He looks like Duran Duran.

Exactly.

Like everybody.

Exactly. No, but I do think the New York L.A., you can’t get any more opposite than that right. In this country, it seems like. Well, I mean, I guess you can. I take it back. What am I talking about?

They are pretty. But like you can get farther apart.

Yeah.

Boston.

But a New York cop coming to L.A. and then what’s great is like I mean that scene with Argyle when he was like, you thought she was going to come running back to you. He’s laughing. And you could see his face. We know that’s true right.

Right. So when you teach this, what do you think is like the thing that the class takes away? Or that you’d want them to take away the most from watching this movie?

Emotional connection to the characters. Cause if I didn’t care about him try to save his wife, it was just the guy running around a building, you know, and if we didn’t care about that, it wouldn’t matter. I think that and the same like you said with Hans like Hans is not just the typical bad guy. We actually kind of liked him. You know, I like his style. I like his delivery, his speeches and everything.

I even like when he when he starts cowering and pretending to be the other person.

Oh he’s great.

Yeah.

Because then you like you almost like respect him like, wow, he’s good with that American accent. But then he’s also likew when when Holly comes and talks to him about, oh, let’s get the bathroom breaks and stuff like that.

We have a pregnant woman out there. Relax. She’s not due for a couple of weeks, but sitting on that rock isn’t doing her back any good. So I would like permission to move her to one of the offices where there is a sofa.

No but I have a sofa brought out to you. Good enough?

Good enough. And unless you like it messy I’d start bringing us in groups to the bathroom.

Yes you’re right. It will be done.

He’s not such a jerk, you know, because Ellis Ellis is such a smart alec, a coke addict. You know, it’s OK for him to get shot, right. But when that moment when you realize that his whole plan was to send all the hostages on the roof and blow up the roof, then you go, oh, what a jerk. This guy this guy’s bad.

When they touch down we’ll blow roof. They’ll spend a month sifting through the rubble. By the time they figure out what went wrong. We’ll be sitting on a beach earning 20 percent.

I do think that for the first time, I think that’s when I was like, oh, wow OK. He really is evil.

Well and we got to give it to Alan Rickman because he did really make that evil like the sheriff of Nottingham. I mean, that character is hilarious. This character is brilliant. I forgot he was in it then the second. I was like, oh, yeah. Alan Rickman. Like, that’s another reason this movie is so good.

Rickman’s great.

And then he goes on to be Snape like. It’s brilliant.

It is funny when I if I mentioned die hard in class and they don’t know it and I say it’s Bruce Willis, Alan Rickman and I say Snape and they get it. They know Snape right. Like come on guys. We were talking before like character like connection, emotional connection to the characters, seeing Bruce Willis in the beginning scared to fly. Right. With the wedding ring, I think. Yeah it’s his left hand wedding ring, you know, with the gun like you start to discover all these things about him. And then the limo, when the guy shows up and he says, hey, I don’t know what to do it’s my first time driving a limo. Oh, first time riding in one. And then he sits in the front seat. You know, so you like him, like you connect right away. And that’s like a New Yorker.

Leaving the teddy bear in the backseat the whole time.

Yeah.

Which I think you’re totally right. And I think that teddy bear then connects you almost with Argyle in a way, because you’re he’s always this guy with a teddy bear.

Yeah.

Like every single character you like, you’re connected to. You even like the villains.

Yeah and Argyle is there the whole time we come back. He’s the one in a way we’re almost like discovering what’s going on through him because I think he’s in the limo looking at the news and discovering this and then he’s trapped.

Right.

So we’re concerned about the wife and the hostages, but we’re concerned for Argyle also.

Absolutely, hole time. And in the end, he just goes and knocks the guy out. I love that moment, too, because he’s this great foil for when you know Bruce Willis is up there like Argyle. Please, please tell me you heard the gunshots you’re calling the cops now. You’re calling the cops. Then you cut and Argyle’s like in his own little world.

He’s talking to his girl right.

Right.

Yeah. And that’s. It’s structured well to show how crazy isolated he is. He’s in a building in the middle of the city of L.A. and no one knows. You know, like what’s going on with these terrorists. Cell phones exist. Different story. Right.

Right. Right. couldn’t have this movie.

Wait wait wait. Hold on a second Argyle had a cell phone in the limo.

He had a yeah. He had a car phone.

He had a car phone.

But he didn’t know anything was going on.

Oh yeah. So. That’s right. Once, once they knew it was too late, everything ran out.

Right.

Everything went public. Yeah. That’s an interesting thing with the media then. Right. When we see that William Atherton’s character because he hears the radio. Right. The police band. Right. That’s how that’s how he finds out. So that’s also another, like, slimy, bad character. Right. The media.

Absolutely.

I’m curious about that. Why they made fun of the media as well.

But it’s true. The media did get made fun of.

Yeah. Cause and the media was responsible for.

Right.

Holly being found out right. John’s wife.

This guy is almost this evil character.

And they definitely do that in Die Hard 2. Like he creates crazy panic, right. When he’s, you know, just doing what the media should do, report the news.

People have a right to know everything about everybody.

But you’re right. Like when he says let me call INS, that’s a big moment. I mean, that’s also, again, why we hate this guy so much and why we’re vindicated. Right, when she decks him.

Right. Yeah no, watching this movie again, it brought me back to the 80s. It reminded me both of, you know, the good but then those little things that get by. And you’re like, oh, yeah. You wouldn’t think like that anymore.

Yeah. So did you see the the last Die Hard movie?

I did see the last Die Hard movie.

In Russia.

Yeah. It was with his son, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I know I read that there’s a prequel coming out to Die Hard. Which what what upsets me about this and again, look, I don’t know much about it, but John McClane is the every man hero. That was a cop, but was never in a situation like this until now and proved himself. So if they’re gonna do a prequel and show that he was as badass hero and you know, when he was in his 20s. That makes no sense.

That’s exactly what I was thinking. You’re totally right.

That upsets me. And I know it’s just a money ploy. Right? Like. I get it. It’s Hollywood, but still. Cause I know I’m going to want to see it. And I don’t know.

And you’ll see it and you’ll be disappointed by it.

Yeah you know so die hard. Like this movie was based on a book that was like the 70s. And you got to look this up, Kristian. Something about like Frank Sinatra was offered this role way back. But it must have been such a different movie.

What for, diehard?

Yeah it was whatever book it was based on. And it was supposed to be made into a movie with Frank Sinatra. And I was like, what the hell is this?

How would he.

Probably 70s or something. Was it 70s.

Yeah and he was not going to get his feet bloody.

Seventy nine.

Seventy nine.

It’s called Nothing Lasts Forever. By Rodrick Thorp.

Thorp I think I got to read the book just to see how different. There’s no way because I am curious about it. Like we talked about how tight the screenplay is. Who wrote the script first, like Jeb Stuart I think is listed and was it a draft of his, a couple of drafts did they write together? I can’t remember which and it was in credits.

You guys were talking about Bruce Willis being like the everyman. The role was originally offered to source Schwarzeneggar and Stallone before Willis.

Wow.

That would have been a very different movie.

That’s crazy yeah that’s.

Arnold Schwarzenegger, just a cop from.

Just a regular cop who’s huge.

I am a New York police officer.

I think that was. Wait was that. That must be around the same time, red heat. That’s like a way to explain his accent. He’s a Russian cop with James Belushi.

So much as John McClane and Holly McClain riding off into the sunset. I think this is our swan song.

Why do. What. Why. We should say, like like John and Al.You don’t like the romantic?

I don’t want to ride off the sunset with you.

That’s the whole reason I invited you here Nick. I was. Fair enough. But who’s Bruce? I’m Bruce Willis. Obviously, in this scenario.

OK I can be Al.

Well, listen, thank you for coming in today.

It was my pleasure.

And I hope anybody learned anything about Die Hard. And we didn’t just.

Seriously doubt it.

I do feel like this was just a great opportunity for us to reminisce back to our childhood and but, you know, I feel with a certain amount of maybe insight that might or might not help.

If if we can get some more fans of die hard out there. I’d be happy. You know, I try that with my students and I don’t think it’s working. So maybe this is podcast could help.

Please go watch. Die hard. It’s not difficult to find. Now is the perfect time. It’s about to be a prequel. So you have to see the first one. And yeah, well, thank you for tuning in. This episode of the backlot was not written by anyone. It was a complete improv here with me and Nick Sivakumaran senior instructor here at New York Film Academy produced by Kristian Hayden and me, David Nelson, who’s also the creative director. Mixed and recorded by Kristian Hayden. It has been executive produced by John Sherlock and Dan Mackler, and is a production of the New York Film Academy. If you want to learn more about our programs and perhaps even have Nick Sivakumaran as your directing instructor, check us out at nyfa.edu. You don’t forget to rate review and subscribe to our podcast on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen.

Are we recording we should record.

I’m recording now.

David:  Hi and welcome to the backlot. I’m David Nelson creative director of The Backlot. And today we have for you a special or unique episode you could probably tell because here I am. And you don’t typically hear me but recently I had the opportunity to sit down with the lead actor as well as the director of one of our student directed plays, Ugly Lies The Bone. They were kind enough to come into the studio today and sit down with us and talk a little bit about their experience with the student directed play as well as meeting the writer herself Lindsey Ferrentino. I had a lot of fun in the studio with them and I think you’re going to enjoy it.

David: I am here with a former student. She was here in our one year program has just graduated and done a student directed play.

Coco: Hello. I’m Coco de Bruycker, and I directed Ugly Lies The Bone at New York Film Academy.

David: Coco is also one of our social media correspondents and has been very tied to the school it’s been really fantastic and we have the lead actress in the play.

Isabelle: Hi I’m Isabelle Germain I’m a BFA Acting student and I played Jessica Knox in Ugly Lies The Bone.

David: So Coco Where are you from. How did you find us. How did

Coco: So I’m from Germany and it was funny because I first went to London and in London I auditioned for NYFA New York. And after a year I came to L.A. for my MFA degree here.

David: You had an interesting story and how you got here. If I remember right. What is that.

Coco: So I come from nothing. Like when I got the acceptance to New York Film Academy New York I was like, Oh my God I don’t know how to do this! Because in Germany like colleges are basically free. And everyone’s like you’re nuts that’s why are you going abroad. Like why do you go to the U.S. So I ended up crowdfunding my tuition. I mean it somehow all comes together because this crowdfunding campaign basically taught me how to edit. But I think you got to start somewhere. And that basically made it possible for me to study at NYFA. And I always say I’m acting change because I want to change people’s perspectives on differences and also I’m an actor with a cerebral palsy that’s also a thing why I went abroad originally because acting schools in Germany see disability as an obstacle in the way and not an opportunity. That’s why I came here.

David: That’s wow that’s fascinating. And it’s something we’re going to talk about a little bit later. But before we do we have another guest here with us Isabelle Germain who is the lead in the play. Isabelle why don’t you tell us a little about yourself.

Isabelle: So I am from Atlanta Georgia and I went to this conference where they were doing auditions for colleges and I just did a general audition and this guy came up to me from the New York campus in little potunk Georgia and he’s like I need you to come to this school please come to this school for me. And I ended up doing it and he’s the sweetest little thing. And I went to the New York campus first because I told my mom said this is a perfect opportunity because I had multiple places to go. She said New York Film Academy will give you New York and L.A. and you can get a degree in less than four years so I think that you should do it. So I went off to New York. Did the year conservatory came to L.A. and here we are.

David: Did you guys have some favorite teachers in New York?

Isabelle: There was Amy Van Horne.

Coco: Yeah.

Isabelle: Number one. Oh my God I’m blanking.

Coco: Victor Verhaeghe.

Isabelle: Rob Roy he’s not in with NYFA anymore but he was amazing. Michael Laibson.

Coco: Michael Laibson. Drew Hirschfield I don’t know if he’s still there.

Isabelle: Anika we must say Anika. Amazing. Yeah.

David: I taught with Michael in Abu Dhabi.

Isabelle: Michael Laibson.

David: Yeah sweetest man.

Isabelle: He’s like an adopted grandfather slash uncle slash amazing man. I love teachers that care about you teachers that can identify people who try and people who don’t because that’s if you don’t get a group of great kids who all love it. Some people will and some people won’t. I love teachers that can not only inspire the group that love to act and want to do it but at the same time care about them actually as people you know going to New York and starting off like that having such hard but understanding teachers was so great.

Coco: Yeah also they all know what they’re talking about because they’re all actors themselves.

Isabelle: One thing that I always say is that if I find someone who doesn’t like a teacher because they’re too hard I don’t believe that every teacher that’s treating you harshly sees potential and wants you to rise to that potential yeah 100 percent. Nobody’s coming to this school and pushing you just because they want to be annoying in New York especially we had teachers who just push and go above and beyond and outside of class will be like How are you doing. Invite me to shows let me know what you need help with. That’s what this should be about connecting teachers actors you know all that kind of stuff.

Coco:I would say I learned the most from instructors who pushed you the most like instructors who knew that you could do better.

Isabelle: My favorite thing that directors say is after you do a scene and after you work they go what did you think what could you do better. And they don’t say anything because a lot of times kids in these classes will just regurgitate what the teachers are saying and they won’t listen. Asking kids what do you think went well is setting them up for success because in the real world you’re not going to go on set and they’re not going to be like Well I think you did this really well and your objective is this. They’re not.

Coco: No nobody cares.

Isabelle: Nobody cares.

Coco: One student here said it’s all about the result in the end they don’t care how you got there. The fact that you get there that’s the main thing. I was afraid of this experience. But in the end you’re not alone. And there are always people wanting to help.

David: For maybe people who are listening who don’t know the play what has happened to Jess describe that for us.

Isabelle: So basically what happened was Jess was a schoolteacher and her mother got so ill that they had to put her into a home and they needed money. So Jess went into the army. She gets brutally injured on the job and she’s completely burned and she can’t walk she can’t move her leg got broken really badly. She was in the hospital for 14 months and then gets flown back to Florida where she’s from. And so she has to deal with not only being burned you know going through that trauma coming back to this world that she thought that she hated but she loves because it’s her home. And then also to people that aren’t the same. You know she hasn’t seen her mom in forever. Her sisters are caretakers so she’s different. And then you know Stevie her love interest is now married. Thinking about having kids. It sets you up for a emotional rollercoaster. It’s why I’m so happy that the beginning is funny because if the beginning wasn’t funny. It’d just be so sad.

Coco: Yeah. That’s why my mentor for the production David Robinette and also Kathy.

Isabelle: Love them. Sorry. Shout out.

Coco: They both said you have to really crush the first part of a play like there’s so much comedy going on. It’s like really like comic relief. And if that’s not there then the audience can really be set up for the dramatic part.

Isabelle: Yeah. Cause you’re given just this you know immediately you see her with the burns and everything. And as an audience you’re thinking oh my goodness this is going to be sad. This is going to be sad sad sad. She comes into this world with her sister who’s so cute she wants everything to be perfect and nice and neat and everything’s happy and Jess is this cynical dry funny character that gets thrown into this mess and it’s just so fun to see her navigating these people who are kind of like I don’t know how to deal with you know Cause you’re burned.

Play: Looks like you and Kelvin really hit it off.

Play: Is that really his name.

Play: What do you mean as a name. I’ve been talking to you about Kelvin for the last year.

Play: Yeah. On the phone I thought you were saying Kevin.

Play: We met on one of those free website.

Play: Maybe the L was a typo.

Play: Very funny.

David: So let’s let’s talk about how did you find the play and what maybe made you decide this is a play you wanted to tackle.

Coco: It’s kind of romantic because we were. We met each other at the New York Conservatory in New York.

Isabelle: Yeah me and Coco have known each other for the longest time that I’ve known anybody at NYFA because we came from New York and we were in the same class starting off and in our first semester we read this play.

Coco: And it was such a challenging role also like both mentally physically like it was great that we started off like that like our instructor really challenged us with her. But it was a great experience.

Isabelle: Yeah. It was a little snippet. We got every one of us got a scene. And so starting from that small space you think maybe I can do this like I don’t know. Maybe probably. And then getting cast as Jessica it was kind of like I have to. There’s no maybe probably could be. It’s I have to and I have to do it 100 percent. And if anything you know mental physical it’s emotional.

Coco: It’s so emotional. Just emotionally draining every night just going through that rollercoaster of you know feelings and emotions and playing it truthfully.

Coco: And it’s all tied together like. That’s the beauty about this play is that the scenes all bleed into one another both emotionally but also like scene-wise set-wise.

Isabelle: Yeah my my friend came to the show and she said one of my favorite parts about this show you had blackouts in between scenes but you could definitely see Jess’s emotional like overflow. I went from one scene and I was that way in the next scene. Cause it’s life.

Coco: And it’s so organically incorporated into one another it’s a whole it’s a little bit like a clock like it’s really sophisticated.

David: When you started working on it way back in New York was the thought then we’re gonna do this together. No.

Coco: That was a surprise.

Isabelle: I had no idea she was even directing the show. One of my teachers came up to me in NYFA and goes Isabelle I think you should audition for Ugly Lies The Bone and I said oh my gosh. I know that show. I love that show. I look at the poster for auditions and it was your name and I was like No way. This all ties perfectly together and I don’t know I think it was meant to be because we had to have gone through all of that to work together so well.

David: So what about the show because it’s very interesting content. I feel like there’s a lot to talk about and we will. I kind of want to like break down what you were thinking with it but what drew you to this play in the first place that you felt connected enough to direct it.

Coco: So back when we first started working on the play like both Isabelle and me we both played Jess. We practiced on Jess and she succeeded. I felt desperate like. And I remember that one night I was riding my instructor because I said I felt so stuck with Jess. I don’t know what to do because my instructor back in New York gave me the rooftop scene the love scene.

Play: Jess look Jess it’s hard for me.

Play: I know what I look like.

Play: No. No it’s not that. Just that your eyes look exactly the same.

Coco: And it was just so hard. But yeah that’s how it all started off for me. I don’t know how you felt about Jess at first. Like when we did it.

Isabelle: Well I didn’t have as tough a scene when we first got introduced to it. I had one of the scenes at the very beginning where you’re meeting you know Jess’s love interest from back when you know her ex fiancé I think.

Coco: Yeah in the gas station.

Play: Welcome to space coast convenience.

Play: I don’t know anybody who would. It’s kind of weird investment. I don’t know anybody who would.

Play: Stevie Jesus Christ it’s me.

Play: What.

Play: I’m Jess.

Play: Holy s**t. Oh God. Wow. Okay. Oh you must. I’m sorry. You must think I’m an idiot.

Isabelle: You know you see that he’s engaged now and this and this and that. But it’s not physically challenging it wasn’t very emotionally challenging but I think doing that it kind of it made me underestimate Jess. I went into it and I was like I guess I can play pretend truthfully in this role like sure or fine whatever living in that. No. And then I had to. So it was a challenge. A nice challenge.

David: So, Coco as someone with cerebral palsy. Do you feel that tied into your choice of the script.

Coco: Yeah I could really much identify with Jess in a way because I want to be seen as a human being. I don’t want to be seen as oh we have a disability role so oh let’s cast Coco. And also because of my cerebral palsy I mean I spend a lot of time in hospitals when I was younger and that’s why I could identify with the story and that’s why I also wanted to tell the story because I think we are all battling our little and big battles every day.

David: Now I’m curious because it’s a you know she’s a vet she’s obviously got this physical trauma the play hints at post-traumatic stress you know we have a large veteran community here. Were you able to take advantage of that. Or vets in any way to get a deeper look at it or was that more kind of typical research. I’m just kind of curious. How did you connect with that.

Isabelle: Well I somehow stumbled upon this guy. He went through this terrible experience hearing him talk about it. It was kind of like a wakeup call because I’d never experienced that and someone who had gone through that who was taking it on the chin and who was positive. Even still seeing you know how it affected them and their lives and what they did every day. I don’t know it just. It was really intense. So when I came into this show I had him in the back of my mind. The last thing you want to do is offend someone who has you know laid their life on the line. So there is an episode in the show like Jess has this PTSD episode where she flashes back. That was really tough.

Play: What what what is that. What is that what is that. Get off of me get inside get inside move. Don’t leave two men walking by themselves. Get inside get inside move. Get inside all of you.

Isabelle: It was really really tough.

Coco: It was a lot of work. Yeah.

Isabelle: Probably the hardest I’ve ever worked and people came up to me and said a veteran after the show it like oh my gosh. He came up to me and he was like it was real like I believed everything and he said that attack that you had. I you know it was moving and it just made everything worth it. Cause if somebody can go to the show and can watch it and can see that happen and go through it and believe that but then watch them come out of it that’s all I can hope for.

Coco: It blew my mind. How how many people like. I think it was the Monday and the Saturday performance that were like the most responsive audience. Like we had so many people really leaving with tears in their eyes and I thought wow that’s so powerful.

David: What does it mean to you as a play. What’s the meaning of the play. What do you think drew you to that play the most. What strikes a chord with you thematically.

Coco: I think it’s the fact that we are all warriors in a way. Like before I proposed the play and I reread it I had another take on the whole thing and the role of the mother like in the final scene Jess’s sister brings home her mother even though Jess doesn’t want to because she knows that she’s not ever going to recognize her because she has dementia and this very last moment in the play that the mom says basically she takes her in her arms and says you’re my child.

Play: Mom Mom Mom. No no Mom do you know this is.

Play: What is wrong with you you think I don’t know my own daughter.

Coco: When I reread this play and I took another look at it I could really see my mom in a way because she fought a lot for me and especially when I was younger and I couldn’t do it by myself. Like there are always people who look at you differently once you have like physical differences or disabilities. And I think that especially mothers of children with a disability have to fight even harder. And when I reread this play I could see my mom in Jess’s mom and the longer we rehearsed on that the more parallels I could find for example and there is this technique it’s called biofeedback. And I had this therapy when I was 10 to 15 and Jess’s VR world I could see so many parallels.

David: The virtual reality thing I find really interesting so there’s this virtual reality element to her therapy and it keeps coming to those scenes.

Play: Open your eyes.

Play: Oh my God.

Play: Turn your head to the right.

Play: Is that a pond over there.

Play: Pond that’s a lake. Can you see beyond the lake is a mountain. The ice is slippery but you need to cross to the other side and climb up. The game is very simple.

Play: Cross and then climb.

Play: Exactly.

David: I’m curious. How does that relate to the story. What. What do you think is important about this virtual world. She’s creating what’s important about that therapy. How does that tie into the piece for you.

Isabelle: It’s everything she’s ever wanted. She’s created this world where she can fully move like she used to be able to. And nobody looks at her differently because that’s what Jess is constantly running from is the reason why she doesn’t want to hear mom is not only because she has dementia but she has dementia on top of the fact that Jess doesn’t look like she used to. So it’s so many layers and Jess is like I can’t handle this one last person because their father isn’t in their life. So she only has her mom. And so for her you know not to be able to recognize her but that I think with the virtual reality she doesn’t have to deal with people and mentally too being free. She’s so caged in all the time caged by a walker by her burns by her mind by her you know PTSD.

Coco: And also there’s one moment when she screams to her therapist. Yeah but this at least is real and this virtual reality world it’s not real. So why are we doing this. When am I going to be fixed.

Play: But this isn’t real. This at least is real. When is it done. When am I fixed.

Isabelle: Her response to that is so beautiful when she says in order to you know live life we have to let go of what was in order to enjoy what is.

Play: In order to get rid of pain we let go and we do that we see the world not for what it was but for what it is.

Isabelle: So many people nowadays are living in the past living in the future living not now. And they’re living in these fake realities that they’ve created these fake personas on social media. On this on that and for Jess it’s just an escape from all that.

David: You end the play Jess is looking out into the audience what is Jess thinking what is Jess looking at.

Isabelle: Overall it’s hard to take this play and not mesh it with your life. It’s so emotionally connected. And I do have parallels of my life with Jess that. You know it’s hard. So when I’m standing there and I’m looking out into the audience you know it’s supposed to be this kind of. I’m home. I’ve needed to create this home. And I definitely got flashes of that for my own reality. You know blending together towards that last moment because you’re thinking to yourself God the show’s done. This is it. But you’re still in it and you’re living in that. And it’s a moment that you have of not only self reflection of Jess reflecting in herself and who she truly is but it was partially you know it was Isabelle it was me up there and I was thinking to myself. Wow. You know I’m home. I’m happy and I’m performing and I. It’s all good. Everything’s great.

David: It’s almost as if the virtual reality has become reality reality.

Isabelle: That’s completely true I think that like we were talking about virtual reality earlier it’s not just the virtual reality being that I can see different things. It’s that virtual escape of the mind where you don’t really have to worry about you know normal day stuff. And that’s kind of Jess at the end. It’s kind of like her whole life. She just wants to be seen as who she is. But she’s married to that old image of herself. Now she has become wedded to her new self and life it’s beautiful.

David: You know what the audience doesn’t know is that on your final performance the playwright Lindsey Ferrentino actually came. How did that happen. Did you reach out to her.

Coco: That was funny. I posted a teaser on Instagram about the show and she commented that she was about to be in LA and if it’s possible to see the show and I’m like oh my god like I remember the night that I texted my group and I said Can you hear me screaming. Look who’s commenting under our teaser. And so we managed to add on her fourth show for her which.

Isabelle: It was pretty surreal.

Coco: Yeah it’s so surreal. Never say never like. It’s insane what you can do.

David: Were you nervous before the show more nervous. Was it.

Isabelle: I think. Who topped the cake was Luke because Mylo bless him the stage manager. Comes up to Luke before the show and says Oh yeah the guy who originated Stevie your role. He’s Lindsey’s fiance. So he’ll be here too.

Coco: He played Stevie at the National Theatre in London.

Isabelle: Yep.

Coco: No pressure.

Isabelle: And Luke was like oh my before the show he was so nervous I was like Oh poor thing. But he did a great job.

Coco: He pulled it off and Mylo was the one who who asked the actor Ralf Little. How do you feel about seeing your role interpreted by another person.

Isabelle: Yeah. He was kind of like. So how did it feel watching somebody else do Stevie. And we were like no.

David: What did he answer. What was his.

Isabelle: It was great.

Q&A: How was it like watching our version of Stevie on stage.

Q&A: Yeah I found Luke pretty annoying actually. But mainly because I kept on seeing things he did and went oh s**t I wish I’d done that. That was much better. Especially when it’s the lines that you’re so familiar with. Coming up you kind of have this rhythm in your head once you’ve performed it so many times that you know how the lines are going to go. So to see somebody with different cadences different choices and especially lines where you think this one’s a killer I’m going to get you know this is one that I always absolutely nailed and then like he’ll do it and get a bigger laugh. I’m like motherf**ker. That happened a few times actually. I thought he nailed it. Annoyingly it made me feel slightly jealous that I wanted to do it again. So yeah thanks man. It was great.

Coco: It was a great energy.

Isabelle: They were so sweet. Surprisingly like so sweet and inspirational and honest. He was really great. Ralf he just got a BBC One show. And he’s coming over here to watch our like. That’s fantastic. That shows you know how great he is.

Coco: And it was also just a great atmosphere we had that night and both were so humble. It was just fun to talk with them.

David: What were some things you pulled out of that for yourself for the project as a whole like how did that affect you as the director of the project.

Coco: I was really impressed. How much time she spends on research and that she’s so committed to truth.

Q&A: You can’t worry about it. You just have to write the truth and I think the best way to do that is research and writing about as much about your own experience in some sort of abstracted way and there’s different tools to help you write truthfully. But that’s the goal. Do you know what I mean I think you avoid cliché by just trying to write truthfully. So for this play I’m not a veteran. I don’t have veterans in my family but my best friend worked at a V.A. center I volunteered at a V.A. center I got to know some veterans I you know transcribed documentaries transcribed interviews with veterans I talked to the people about the VR system which is a real thing but then I set the play in my hometown. You know and wrote really about my experience coming back to my hometown in a side angle away and wrote about people that I know indirectly. So I always try to do a combination of both.

Coco: She knows what she’s writing about and this is so important to find this truth that she’s talking about. I am always having such a hard time with my writing because I’m so afraid of cliché and the key is truth and everyday life.

Isabelle: There was a quote Ralf brought up I can’t remember where it was from it was from a book it was saying something like every 20 years. Everyone gets the same opportunities whether it be at the beginning of those 20 years or the end of those 20 years. He was like acting it is so much not in your control and you just have to keep doing it.

Q&A: I’ve been doing this for 20 years and in England sort of relatively well known but I’m an absolute nobody here so it’s great fun. And but you get taught all sorts of things that are much more useful than anything I can say about technique and how to act and how to break down scripts and all that kind of thing. But what I’ve found over the years that’s the most difficult thing is managing your own. Psychology. David Mamet said over a 20 year period everyone has the same opportunities it might come in the first week after you leave drama school or it might come 20 years later. But it’s about being ready to take it and mostly managing the kind of crushing worry and anxiety of being in between jobs not getting jobs. Watching somebody who you are absolutely sure you’re better than getting the job that you should have got. You know and I’ve worked relatively constantly and it happened I guarantee somewhere out there right now. Johnny Depp’s going I wasn’t in a Marvel movie that’s bulls**t guaranteed. You know that’s it doesn’t matter. It never. There’s no level you get to where that’s not the case. So it’s a hard game it’s a hard hustle. You know you all are going into it and I wish you all luck because it is hard when you’re working it’s the best thing in the world. And when you’re not you have to have some idea of controlling the worry and going it’s OK. And finding some other creative outlet and something that makes you happy and makes you what’s the Kelvin line. Go to work go home put something funny on TV go to bed hopefully next to somebody.

Play: This is all I’ve ever wanted. OK to come to work go home put something funny on TV go to bed. Hopefully next to someone. Most people just want to be happy.

Q&A: I would love it if if that was my life. But you know most of you are here because you’ve got creative ambitions and it’s not quite that simple for most of us who want to do this for a living because that’s not the gig. That’s not the game.

Isabelle: And he was talking about the fact that if we had asked him the question last week about what he was doing next it very well could have been nothing. It’s just about timing. And if you keep that creative outlet it’ll work you gotta trust that.

Coco: In the end it all comes down to stamina. And I think that’s also what this play stands for. Like there is one line in the play that she says your body is not built to endure it’s built to recover. And that’s really about this going keep going. Go through it.

David: I was curious to meet you Isabelle just because I’d only seen you with the skull cap and the.

Isabelle: You know what you know what’s funny after the show okay. I’m like OK god. I can go and I can drink some. All I wanted was water cause I’m so hot under all that stuff because you know I’ve got ace wraps on my body I’ve got latex on my body then I’ve got the clothes then I’ve got the dress the shirt the bald cap the scarf. And I’m starting to walk backstage and Anne was like no no no don’t leave we’ve got to do the Q&A. I was like can I please take the bald cap off and she was like yeah yeah. So I turn around and I just rip the bald cap off and Ralf comes up to me after it was like I have to be honest getting used to you being bald for that long of time and then watching you rip it off. Was disturbing. It was not something that I was comfortable with. I was like oh wow it’s pretty cool. We created the illusion if anything.

Coco: Mission accomplished.

Isabelle: First time ever wearing a bald cap.

Coco: Oh yeah.

David: Oh wow.

Isabelle: Ever ever. This was definitely a show that got better and better. I think that’s why I was so comfortable when she came. Because we had had a day Saturday. It was kind of I know all of our mentalities were like we’ve been doing this. We’ve been doing this. It’s so emotionally heavy. We got to do it one more time and then having Sunday off and then going on Monday was like we get to do this. It’s not we have to we get to. And so I know I was buzzing. I was like yes.

Coco: Yeah definitely.

Isabelle: One more time. I just wanted to say that not a lot of people do play productions at NYFA because for whatever reason the thing is that everyone should be taking advantage of this. If you haven’t been involved in a play production you should be involved in one you should act and one and you should try to direct one. If anything pitch something don’t wait until it’s too late to be like maybe you should have taken that offer.

Coco: This is the space at NYFA that you can experiment.

Isabelle: NYFA is truly a playground and a lot of times people don’t use every aspect of that playground. They think I’m going to go and I’m going to do the swings go do acting. I’m going to stick to that and I’m going to get in and get out. But if you just sit and you explore those opportunities you can find so many amazing connections people opportunities.

David: I know you just made Anne’s day. I will tell you that this was just a phenomenal advertisement for the student directed plays. She’s really really happy.

Isabelle: They’re they’re good. I mean one of the things that I hate to hear from people is this school isn’t doing enough for me or it’s what you put in. If you put in a lot you’ll get out a lot.

Coco: Yeah. No one’s going to bring you something you have to do it in the end it all comes down to you.

David: Well guys congratulations because it was an amazing show. I think that everyone responded really well I think the fact that you could get Lindsey here was.

Coco: Oh my God it’s crazy.

David: It’s just you know you talk about the universe kind of providing there you put something out on Instagram they come back. It was really and honestly it was a very emotional very powerful show. I think that whether you know you were connected to it or not or you found the connection we as an audience definitely felt that connection.

Coco: That’s the main thing.

David:  Well Coco Isabelle thank you very much for coming in.

Isabelle: Thank you.

Coco: Thank you so much for having us David. Thank you.

Isabelle: Thank you.

Coco: Thank you Kristian.

David: So that was Coco and Isabel students in our acting for film program. This is the backlot at New York Film Academy and thank you for listening.

David: This episode of the backlot has been brought to you by the New York Film Academy as always. It is mixed and edited by Kristian Hayden produced by Kristian Hayden and myself. David Nelson executive produced by Dan Mackler and Jean Sherlock Special thanks to the acting for film department who puts on these student directed plays its Chair Linda Goodfriend Associate Chair Anne Moore and all of the students who took part as cast or crew in the production of this play. And a very very special thanks to our guests Coco de Bruycker and Isabelle Germain. If you are interested in learning more about our programs please go to our website at NYFA.edu. Don’t forget to rate review and subscribe to our podcast on Apple podcasts for wherever you listen. This is David Nelson. We’ll see you next time.

David: Now I know I’m supposed to wrap up the show but I’m having a little bit of trouble doing that. It’s this is a new time for me. This is this is exciting being behind the mic. You know I was thinking when I was a kid growing up outside Newark you know a young man little confused…