Producer Nicole Avant

Nicole Avant's father, Clarence Avant, worked as a music executive who kickstarted countless musicians, including the late Bill Withers. Listen as we sit down with her to talk about her powerful new documentary on Netflix, The Black Godfather.

Tova: Hi and welcome to the backlot. I’m Tova Laiter moderator and director of the New York Film Academy Guest Lecture series. In this episode, we will take an in-depth look at one of my great guests and hear about her experience in the entertainment industry. And now Eric Conner will take you through the highlights of this Q&A.

Eric Conner: Hi, I’m Eric Conner senior instructor at New York Film Academy. And in this episode, we bring you producer Nicole Avant and her Netflix documentary, The Black Godfather. We recommend you watch it before listening. But you know, that’s up to you. So who is The Black Godfather a.k.a. Miss Avant’s dad, Clarence Avant? For one, he was a powerful music executive who helped usher in the careers of countless musicians, including the recently deceased Bill Withers.

[Bill Withers – Ain’t No Sunshine]

Eric Conner: But his career went beyond music. He was an influencer and a tastemaker. In the 1970s, he ensured that homerun king Hank Aaron would be the face of Coca-Cola. More recently, he was a major player in introducing the country to Barack Obama. And without him, the universe might never have gotten this memorable theme. At an early age, Nicole Avant got to see firsthand just how powerful her dad really was.

Nicole Avant: I think it was oh, I definitely know for sure it was with Hank Aaron, probably one of the first times that I noticed because we got special seats at Dodger Stadium. And even though Hank wasn’t from here, that’s the one way he was – wanted to do something for our family. But I remember Hank was very open. He’s really the one who gave me the inspiration to make the movie because Hank was the most open and honest about how my father’s actions changed his life and he made such a big deal out of it. And then because of that, I would ask, like I knew he broke Babe Ruth’s record, but that’s all I knew. Then he gave me the backstory of how hard it was personally, like he couldn’t enjoy it, like he said in the film, you couldn’t even enjoy it because of all the death threats and fearing for his children’s lives.

And so I think between that and then seeing my dad on Soul Train, which by the way, that clip that we found, my parents told me I was crazy, told me it didn’t exist. Everybody told me it didn’t exist. And my mom said, you must have dreamt that. He was never on Soul Train. Why would he be? My dad said I was never on Soul Train. I’m telling you, I remember. I was young and I was watching the TV. And I remember it was a big deal because he was on television. I didn’t know why my father was on television. So I was so happy that we found that footage because they kept fighting me on it. But I think those two things and then as I got older, it was getting into concerts and getting in backstage. There was like a Bobby Brown new addition, some Al B. Sure, something. They were all together. And I remember we couldn’t get backstage and we were, we didn’t have enough passes or we didn’t have the right passes or something. I said, oh, darn it. And I was walking away and someone said, Avant, come this way. And then some security guard walks up to me and goes, are you related to Clarence? And I said, maybe, yes, because I don’t know why he was asking. And all of a sudden he just opened. He’s like, come on, come. How many friends do you have? And I go, this is amazing. This is fantastic. So it kind of happened throughout. But I remember the first time was really Soul Train and then Hank Aaron and Andy Young telling me their stories.

Eric Conner: In case that story doesn’t make it clear, Clarence Avant is truly a larger than life figure who’s stories almost sound like myths. And who better to produce a documentary worthy of the man than his own daughter? And that’s thanks largely to the lessons he bestowed upon her at an early age.

Nicole Avant: My parents made me do every kind of job all my life. They had me started working like when I was 10 answering phones at this record company or working at a boutique. I sold shoes. I was a waitress. I did all that. And then one time my father said, I wanted to be in the record business. I want to follow my dad and that. And I ended up doing that. But I was in college and he said, I got you a job. I got you an internship at Warner Brothers Television. I don’t want to go to Warner Brothers television. I don’t even want to do that. He said, but you should learn the business. You should learn different types of business because all of entertainment is one business. So you should learn like all the facets. So I went there and I have to say I loved it. And I learned everything. You know, I copied scripts, you know, for one week and then I drove around and was a gopher the next week. And then I was in the legal department. I went to all the different departments and met different people. And it kind of helps you understand the business. I still didn’t really necessarily want to. I always want to make documentary films. I loved those films when I was growing up. I loved that it taught me everything. And then as I got older, I thought, well, maybe there’s some way you can make a film that’s, that’s a documentary, but a little more of the entertainment business in it to make it cooler and make people sit through it. Or they’d want to sit through it. And so I started there. My claim to fame during my internship, by the way, was meeting. I had, it was my last week. And there is a show called Head of the Class. And this is in the 80s. You guys were probably not even born. But they said to me the last week, you have a guest star. And I said, what do I do? And they said, you just go to the trailer, make sure he shows up on set on time, make sure he has a script. Blah, blah, blah. And I went and I walked up with my clipboard and I knocked on his trailer and I said, Hi, Brad. And he walked out. He said, yes. And I said, Brad Pitt. And he said, yes. And I said, Hi, I’m Nicole Avant. I’m your gopher. And he, and it’s so crazy that I’m watching him at the Oscars this week. And what I loved about him was that he was so excited to be an actor. He was so excited to be where he was in that moment. Like, can you believe we’re on this lot? Can you believe we’re here? Isn’t this so great? But I remember that. And that was a long – that was 1988 I think. So that’s how I, I kind of did every job but I fell into entertainment through that internship that I fought my dad on. Of just saying, I want to do what I want to do this summer. And he’s, of course, was like, well, you’re on my payroll, so you’re going to do what I say, which he’s right, because now I say the same thing to my kids.

Eric Conner: Working these jobs taught Miss Avant how to conduct herself in the entertainment industry.

Nicole Avant: I used to follow the head of legal department out of all things, but it was the way he behaved that I studied. I noticed that he spoke to everybody, no matter who it was, he spoke to everybody, meaning not just trying to start a conversation, but he was respectful to everybody. So if it was the janitor and we walked into the building. He knew the janitor’s name. He said, hello. How’s your family? Wherever. We go all the way up to the president’s office, he’d speak to that person the same way. And I noticed that he Taught me, basically, you need to live the golden rule in your life as much as you can. You’re gonna mess up. And we all do. We all don’t pay attention to things that we should. But what I loved about him is that through his actions, he spoke to me instead of sitting down and saying, here’s my advice for you to go through life. He showed me really how to go through life. And he really did practice that every day, even if he was in a bad mood or what have you. It was very important to him to show people that they are valuable by giving them respect. And what I learned from him was that respect is the highest form of love. So when people say just love everybody, I think really it’s respect everybody, because then everybody’s kind of, you know, as much as you can. But that’s what I learned from him. And I and I’ve tried to take it into every area of my life. And I notice when I don’t do it and how it makes me feel. So that’s what I would say was the best advice shown to me.

Eric Conner: Miss Avant grew up with an amazing role model and her father. So it’s not too surprising that she initially worked in the music industry. But like her dad, she wasn’t content staying in one lane for too long.

Nicole Avant: I thought I was going to stay in the record business all my life. I loved it and I loved the challenges and I loved the different facets of it. I love working in different departments. I had a great time. But then as different opportunities showed up, I just thought, you know, I’m so curious about things that I just kind of went that way. But I think it’s your personality and I think you need to do what you really, whatever you’re really good at is usually a sign of that’s what you should be doing. It doesn’t mean you can’t do other things, like if you do comedy all your life. I mean, if you wanted to do comedy, but you still love dancing, it doesn’t mean you can’t take a class, you know? It doesn’t mean that you have to be a professional at all these different things, but focus on really what you love and what you want to give your time to, I think is the most important thing. And usually you know what you love by what you’re really good at, whatever you’re really good at. That’s why it’s a gift. Like you just have it. But you have to, at some point in your life, you’re going to have to figure out what’s your hobby vs. what your talent is and where you want to go. And you’ll, you’ll figure that out. You’re young, you have time. But I would try everything for sure. But I wouldn’t stay in something if you just kind of like, I’m just going to stay in this and I’m not really sure and you just kind of hang out there without it being your passion. Because a lot of people say follow your passion. But I always say you need to follow what you’re really good at. You really do. I mean, if I followed my passion, I, you know. God knows. I don’t think I’d be sitting here. But I think it depends on your personality. But I think why not? When you’re young, this is the time to try as many things as possible, to see where you feel comfortable, where you feel that you could be as productive as you can.

Eric Conner: Her passion has taken her far and wide, from powerful music exec, to acting in Barry Levinson’s Wag the Dog, to serving as U.S. ambassador to the Bahamas. And through all of this, she had her sights set on one important project.

Nicole Avant: This documentary happened because I was trying to figure out a way to tell my dad’s story, at least just document it like as a tribute reel, kind of just for my family and for, you know, just passing it along. And then I thought, no. And then we were gonna write a book. And then the more and more time I spent with my father, I thought, he’s such a character. He’s so crazy. I mean, who would even believe this in a book? No one’s gonna believe any of this. No one’s going to believe the stories. No one’s going to believe his personality. And then, I said something to my husband one day, I said, I wish there was something where I could tie in sports and movies and television and activism and civil rights and all these things. He said, you’ve lived with the guy for 18 years. He’s right under your roof. You don’t even see that the character, your main person is right there. And then that’s how it happened.

And I knew Reggie Hudlin for a very long time and we’d been really good friends and we’d always sit in a corner at a party and talk about African-American history and get frustrated that no one really understood our history. And no one had seen documentaries on us or knew enough. You know, there was always like African-Americans, all black people in America are, live this way and eat this food or only do these things. And it would just drive me nuts. And Reggie was the same. And I figured he’d be a great person to direct because my father would give him more because my dad’s not very, what’s the right word? He’s just not very open.

Eric Conner: Reggie is Reginald Hudlin, the Oscar nominated producer of Django Unchained and director of Eddie Murphy’s Boomerang. Despite her connections to the subject, it still took a lot of hands on deck behind the scenes to make The Black Godfather.

Nicole Avant: Kate had worked on a few other films, and since this is my first one, she knew how to get everybody in the room and set everything up. So it’s, you know, it’s like kind of the end of the movie. You see all the credits and everyone has a gift to bring to the film. And I think that’s true in every area of life. Like, everybody has a gift that they bring, that they have, that somebody else doesn’t have. And it doesn’t mean that it’s less or better than someone else. But people always say, oh my God, you did all these things. I really have like two things that I can do in life, you know. And I I just use those things all the time. But I’m not great at a lot of things. I’m really not. And some people and I want to find people who. Oh, my God. You’re fantastic at that. You’re great at this. You can make me look great. I mean, if without the editors. Jeez, I mean, what would you do without an editor. I cried so many times during this film. I would just take all the notes. Like could you make a film out of this? Possibly. Could you make any of this make sense? Because none of this is making sense. And as soon as you know, Will would work with me every other day, every week, and all of a sudden it started coming. You know, all of a sudden his gifts started allowing. And then once it started, then I would come up with more ideas.

Eric Conner: If one thing made this project complicated and trust me, there was more than one. It was the challenge of fitting all of Clarence Avant into one documentary and the lack of script might not have helped.

Nicole Avant: In hindsight, if I could do it over, the one thing I would do is have a script. I wish I would have had something written out, some kind of storyline that we could follow. I think a lot of my frustration was, where the hell are we going with this? What – are we start? – We had so many openings, so many, because we didn’t have a script. You got to know where you’re going. And I think that’s what scripts kind of, you can always change them, but it’s really nice to start somewhere and kind of know like you – I like – I like connecting the dots and everything. But it was basically most of the interviews. And then because we didn’t have a script, we didn’t know we had 20 different stories to tell. So it kind of finally fell in to him being the change in so many people’s lives and being the important change. And so then we started taking different interviews out. So we had to get very, very specific. So it took a little longer than we wanted. It was almost three years.

Eric Conner: When you watch the documentary, one ongoing theme is how Clarence Avant’s real push wasn’t just about inclusivity. It was about putting African-American entertainers in the driver’s seats of their own careers.

Nicole Avant: I think the biggest changes and the most important changes were putting people in a position of power that they can therefore make decisions and control their destiny and then open the door for other people to come in. I mean, there used to be you know, when I was growing up, it used to be like Billboard used to have the top 100 songs, you know, black artists. It was the black charts and then the world charts. And they used to separate them all. I mean, I’m not kidding. It wasn’t that long ago. I mean, it was still just the black chart. And it was really important for my dad to say, listen, why can’t black people be in charge and women be in charge of certain departments that are only run by, you know, one type of person? But it should be everybody. And by the way, not just for black, – like in the film – you know, my dad managed Lalo Schifrin. Well, Lalo Schifrin’s not black, obviously. And my dad, I loved his question and I love the answer he got back was, what am I going to do with a white composer? Well, the same thing you do with a black composer. Like it’s, you know. And that’s what my dad was fighting is, why aren’t there black executives working on R&B music as well as black executives working in rock n roll? Because everybody else is doing both. So I think that’s the most important thing, that things started to change in the record business. And you started to see more people of color in general, really having high level positions that they otherwise would have never had.

Eric Conner: It’s clear in the doc that Clarence Avant would not back down from what he believed in. And that might be what impresses Miss Avant most about her father. He’s brave.

Nicole Avant: He’s really brave. I think bravery, by the way, is just missing in general. I really do. I mean, just, you know, being courageous doesn’t mean that you’re never afraid. It’s just you do it afraid. That’s just it. I have to tell myself all the time. I’m still afraid. I’m afraid of lots of things. But then I just have to then convince myself. Nicole, you’re going to do it afraid. And I think my father was very lucky that he knew his purpose early on, which is a difference. You know, a lot of people don’t. But he got that lane right where he figured like it’s almost like he won like the golden ticket, you know, and he realize, oh, my God, no one else has this ticket. And with this ticket, I can open lots of doors for other people that otherwise would just be standing there. I like to say that he made it possible, you know how people always say, like, run your race, run your race. I think my dad’s gift was that he allowed people to get on their mark. Because you have to get on your mark before you could run your race. And I think a lot of people have been denied throughout history, white and black. And every religion and both genders, everybody has at some point been denied stepping up to their mark. And I think that’s what’s important right now to all men is show up and just get on your mark and then go. And you know what? And then sometimes you’re going to run or you’re going to fall and sometimes you’re gonna have to pick yourself up. And sometimes it’s not going to work out the way you thought. And sometimes you’re going to continuously do the right thing and the wrong thing is going to happen. But the beauty about life, I think, is that you get to start over every single day. And life really is an arena. And that’s the one thing I learned from my dad, because I used to get mad at him when I was younger, because I used to think that he’d never gave me a break. If I complained about anything or I was sad about something, he’s like, you got to get back in the arena. You’ve got to get back in the game, Nicole. You’ve got to get back in the game. And what I’ve taken from that is it’s true. But sometimes you have to pause. But you still have to get back. And so you have to be brave to get, because life is just tough. And it’s beautiful for sure. But it’s still tough. It’s tough and beautiful. And you have to make the most of it. I think without bravery, I think you’re kind of dead in the water.

Eric Conner: Though Miss Avant cautions that her dad’s personality might not exactly be the model for everyone to emulate.

Nicole Avant: I would be a little more polished than my father. He definitely rubbed people the wrong way for sure, because it’s a very big personality. It’s a lot. He’s just a lot. And it’s great in certain areas. That’s why it was perfect for what he did. It was perfect. But he couldn’t take that personality everywhere, you know. So even he was not like that. When he used to come to my parent teacher meetings, he was like a little fly on the wall, you know. He’d say, hi, are you all right? You know, like I’m Mr. Avant, but quite a different person. You’d be surprised at dinner parties. He doesn’t talk. He’s very awkward. He’s socially awkward. So this whole big persona is only in his lane. Outside of his lane, he’s quiet and shy and. But I I think that as an actor, I think you you study human behavior. And I think just read the room and you’ll know. And sometimes it’ll call for you to be like, oh, you know what? Screw it. I’m just going to walk up to this person and say something. And then other times you have to really know. No, I’m not going to I’m not going to do that. You know, I think a lot of acting teachers now tell people, just write to the producers home, send your headshots and send it to their house and be bold. Don’t do that. No, I really don’t. Because, you know what? Guess where it goes. Right in the trash. That’s just the truth. And the only because it gets like, there’s an office. Like there has to be some level of professionalism and some level of boundaries. Otherwise, people don’t take it seriously or they think of you in a different way where you definitely don’t want that, where you’re thinking, I’m going to be bold and different and cool. And then someone else is thinking, oh, my God, this person is not even respecting my boundaries. So when people go to work, they want to work. And when they come home, sometimes they don’t. It just never lands right. I’ve never seen it. I know everyone tells people that because I used to be in acting classes, these to say, oh, go do this. And I just thought, oh, I know better. No, no, no, I’m not gonna I’m not I’m not going to do this. So I think it just is, is whatever you feel in the moment. But especially because you are an actor and you could kind of read people in a different way. I think you’ll know. But I wouldn’t go, I wouldn’t go outside of who you are, you know, if it’s your personality. That’s one thing. But I wouldn’t, you seem to have a very nice open personality. You don’t have to do much. And you have a great smile. You should do that for sure. That just opened up. I mean that’s a big door opener right there. Walking in with a very positive attitude and a smile changes everything. It’s really a really great calling card for anything, by the way.

Eric Conner: His bravery and determination is what makes Clarence Avant such an inspirational character and why Nicole Avant was so excited about how far this documentary could reach.

Nicole Avant: I would’ve told the story if it was about any of your dads, by the way. It had nothing. I mean, he just happened to be my dad, but I just thought it was such a good story, I would’ve told it about anybody. And I really wanted to. I didn’t have a target audience. I definitely wanted African-Americans for sure to see the film so they could see because I hear all the time. I get letters all the time like, we’ve never seen ourselves on the screen all at once, like all black people working together or people doing things together for each other and supporting each other and not playing one role or being the bad person or being poor or this or that. But I wanted it to reach. I literally my prayer was like, I pray that this reaches everyone that it’s supposed to reach around the world. And if it can motivate and inspire and empower as many people as possible, that was my goal. And that’s what’s happened. Thank God. But it really has been wonderful to hear from people of all continents. Everybody writing in saying, oh, I didn’t know this or I’d never seen this before or I didn’t know this part about American history or the civil rights footage that we really wanted to put the film because I knew that out of everything that was going to be the most talked about that people forgot or that they don’t show in schools anymore. I grew up in schools where they used to show that all the time. They don’t do that anymore. And I think it’s important because you don’t necessarily have to say anything. You just show footage. And I think people understand from watching something, which I think is the beauty of what you guys want to do in life is the beauty of storytelling is showing something as opposed to beating it on the head all the time and trying to just suffocate someone to understand. Sometimes it’s just an image because the image is so powerful. So that’s what we wanted to do.

Eric Conner: Miss Avant envisioned The Black Godfather as an opportunity to share her father’s legacy. So a new generation could learn about how far he went to make things happen, both for himself and for others. Just as importantly, it also shows the power and importance of artistic expression.

Nicole Avant: I realized at a young age. I’ve watched everyone around me, and the beauty was that I realized that everyone, no matter how successful you’d see it on TV or in the newspapers, you read about them that they had a human experience like everybody else and the human experience is up and down and up and down and sad and happy and this and that. And humans have to become strong. We all have to be, develop a muscle within ourselves to get up again and run. And sometimes we have to pause longer than others. Sometimes the pause is really long and very hurtful and sometimes it’s not. But the trick is you have to know that you have to get up and run again. And it’s tiring. But I think it’s the ticket in life. I think it’s just that’s it. But music motivates me. Music and movies. Like without movies. Movies actually help me survive, really, because I would go into other people’s stories and other people’s worlds. And when you see trauma and sadness and pain through somebody else’s eyes and somebody else’s story, it kind of gives you, I think helps develop a strong muscle in you. And you kind of learn from other people. At least I did. I watched movies all the time. It’s honestly music and movies because it’s again, music is storytelling. So stories have gotten me through everything in life. And I’d always go back to different characters. And, you know, It’s A Wonderful Life was my favorite movie at a very young age because I thought the angel Clarence did what my father did. That’s why I thought, oh, my God, that’s what my dad does. Same. His name is Clarence. It’s the same thing. But but that movie made a very big impact on me of faith and people having faith in you and being a really good person and bad things happening to you or unfair things happening to you. So that’s what keeps me motivated, is other stories so that you don’t feel like it’s only you.

Eric Conner: Miss Avant’s love letter to her father’s life and career manages to do all of that and then some. We want to thank her for sharing her story with our students. And thanks to all of you for listening. By the way, she’s married to Ted Sarandos, the chief content officer of Netflix. We did an episode on him a little while back. So give it a listen.

This episode was based on the Q&A moderated by Tova Laiter to watch the full interview or to see our other Q&As, check out our YouTube channel at YouTube.com/NewYorkFilmAcademy. This episode was written by me Eric Conner. Edited and mixed by Kristian Heydon. Our creative director is David Andrew Nelson, who also produced this episode with Kristian Heydon and myself. Executive produced by Tova Laiter, Jean Sherlock and Dan Mackler. To learn more about our programs. Check us out at NYFA.edu. Be sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen. See you next time.

Screenwriter Derek Kolstad

For the fans of the snappy dialogue from the John Wick trilogy, Derek Kolstad is the man to thank. We got the chance to sit with him and discuss his career, from how he got into screenwriting to how he treats his characters.

Tova Laiter: Hi and welcome to the backlot. I’m Tova Laiter moderator and director of the New York Film Academy Guest Lecture series. In this episode, we will take an in-depth look at one of my great guests and hear about his experience in the entertainment industry. And now, Eric Conner, we’ll take you through the highlights of this Q&A.

Eric Conner: Hi, I’m Eric Conner senior instructor at New York Film Academy. And in this episode, we bring you the man who gave John Wick some of the coolest dialog we’ve heard since classic Schwarzenegger. Screenwriter Derek Kolstad.

Clip: They call him Baba Yaga.

Clip: I once saw him kill three men in a bar. With a pencil.

Clip: I’m retired.

Clip: Not if you’re drinking here you’re not.

Clip: They know you’re coming.

Clip: Of course. But it won’t matter.

Eric Conner: There’s more to Derek Kolstad’s story than snappy dialog. In fact, Mr. Kolstad first discovered his deep love of cinema thanks to one very specific trait: his height.

Derek Kolstad: Like all you guys, I mean, I grew up loving movies and grew up in a Christian household. And I was a s****y liar. I still am. And I was this height at the age of 12. And so I never got carded going into R rated movies. And I excitedly came home. My mom said, what did you see? And I was like, Robocop. And that was a horrifying movie at the time. And I excitedly told her the entire plot of the movie and I laughed. And she looked to my dad and said, we should probably encourage him in this. So thanks, mom and dad. Madison, Wisconsin is a world away from L.A., especially pre-Internet. And even though I started writing screenplays at the age of 13 before Microsoft Word, we had word perfect. And I programed the template for a screenplay and just started writing for myself. So I’d write two, three, four or five screenplays a year and put them on the shelf or save them and that file’d get f**king corrupted and all that kind of stuff. But I didn’t know how to do this, so I watched movies. I love movies.

Eric Conner: Mr. Kolstad did more than just watch movies. He wrote a lot of them, too. So we got his shot later in life. He was ready.

Derek Kolstad: Honestly, it came down to, you know, we always talk about the 10,000 hour rule. You guys have heard that a thousand times, I’m sure. And I think for me, it’s the 10,000 page rule. But you get to a point where you begin to hear voices in your head from various editors and readers in your life without hearing them. And also you realize that more often than not, in the movies that I love and the movies I want to write the city’s a character, the building’s a character. So spend a line or two. You love your hero, you love your hero. You love your hero. And you want to stay with the hero. And then you realize that when you deviate from the hero, what the people are talking about and what they’re trying to say and do affects your hero. I mean, that’s that’s genre to me. That’s what I love about it. But when you think of the efficiency of it, our favorite scenes in movies don’t have anything to do with plot. You know, I always think of Ronan is one of my favorite movies I bring it up all the time. And if you want to write. Watch that watch that weekly until you sell something.

Tova Laiter: Which one?

Derek Kolstad: Frankenheimer’s Ronan because there’s so many just lines in there, throwaway lines, you realize, oh, that’s character, you know. But I think the other thing, too, is don’t be afraid to write out the dialog. Write out the narrative. Write the conversation. Read it and render it out three pages into a look, a nod. We were talking in the green room about, you know, the old westerns. And you can you can say what you will about some of them. You can have a monologue. You can have a certain guy tip his hat. And the tip of the hat speaks more so in regards to efficiency. The other thing, too, is go way back. Watch Harold Lloyd. Watch Buster Keaton, watch the old silent movies and just see how they tell a story without any kind of dialog. And that was a godsend

Eric Conner:As many people in the entertainment industry can attest. Sometimes love just ain’t enough. Derek Kolstad even started a different career but he couldn’t turn his back on his true passion.

Derek Kolstad: The age of 26, I was a consultant in Chicago. I worked for Dale Carnegie and I taught sales managers how to build and staff their sales teams. Exciting. And my little brother called and he asked me how he’s doing. I just start crying and I’m not an emotional guy. And I realized I had to fail at this. And so it was about 2000. I drove out to L.A. in a Golf TI that had been shipped over from Germany without a governor switch. It was a diesel little thing. Half my backseat was taken up by a 19 inch CRT monitor and people just glaze over at the tech.

But anyway, I knew one guy who worked at Azuza Pacific University that I went to kindergarten with and I crashed on his couch out in San Dimas. That’s where I started. And this was before I mean, it was with email and stuff, but I was spending two hundred and 300 bucks a week printing out scripts, putting in the Brads, buying straight edge razors to actually run along the sides so that when people opened up, it just felt good. And I got noticed right away because I wrote a screenplay called The Wayfarer. And it was just a cool title. It was a sci fi horror, which a couple of years after event horizon. So it was kind of in that mix. And I had two black leads. So at the time, everyone, of course, thought that Derek Kolstad was a black man and I’m not. But I had a lot of very interesting meetings of walking into Spike Lee’s company and they’re like who are you? But it was a great experience. And I got to know a lot of people.

The problem was, is I had the corporate thick skin. I didn’t have the industry thick skin like I came from Midwest corporate where handshakes were does your bond. Hollywood is very different, you hear yes all the time. And you get to a stage where you want to hear go f**k yourself because you’re like, oh, thank God, you know. And so I walked away for a little bit, but kept writing and kept watching. And I would still write three to five screenplays a year, put them on a shelf. And I wrote this one called Acolyte and Sonia, my wife, who we lovingly refer to as a script bitch, because she’s the first line defense. She is my editor. And she better at this than me. She makes me a better writer. And she read it and she’s like, you should try again. I got a manager I did to direct to DVD movies that were an ungodly challenging. You’re still kind of, you know, proud of them because of what you went through. And I was like, I’m done. You know, I’ve lived a happy life. I like writing. It makes me happy. And so I was going to walk away.

Eric Conner: John Wick also claimed he was gonna walk away. And we know how that played out. Fortunately, one of the producers on Mr. Kolstad’s previous films wasn’t gonna let his talents go to waste.

Derek Kolstad: The one producer on that project that I liked named Mike Callahan introduced me to Mike Goldberg and Josh Adler who were managers at the time. And they’re currently still my reps. They saved me. The first one we went out with was Acolyte, got optioned for eighteen hundred bucks, which a man, you know, that was three months of rent. And then I wrote Scorn and Scorn is what John Wick became. And I wrote it after watching Faster with Dwayne Johnson and Harry Browne, both of which movies, I was just like, they were, OK, you know. And my thing about John Wick is it’s an homage to the movies I grew up with and loved. You know, you mentioned in The Green Room in the 70s and I always love in even the old Bond movies. They refer to a character and you won’t see that character for two or three movies down. But you didn’t know who he was at the time. And so when you think that I wrote that initial screenplay in three days, the second draft in two weeks, I sold it in February and we went into production that November. Yeah.

So when you think of overnight success, I know I’m blessed. I worked hard to get to the point where I get to work hard, but that’s kind of, you know, a little bit of the journey. And the interesting thing is we initially went out with that script with directors, and all the directors that we met with were like, don’t get the dog. It’s not enough. Let’s give him a whole family to slaughter. And, you know, instantly our whole thing is it’s not the dog, it’s the dog. And that’s not the point. Like we’ve seen that. And it made sense to this character. And suddenly on Friday, eleven o’clock in the morning, and Basil, the producer called me and he’s like just got a weird call Keanu Reeves called to ask to read the script. You cool with that? I’m like f**k yeah, you know. And so they they couriered it over to Keanu and I got a call hour and a half later. And he’s like, what are you doing? Like, I’m waiting for your call. And he’s like, can you go over to his house and I’m like f**k yeah, you know. And so I live in Pasadena. He’s right above I mean. He’s in Hollywood, a star. You know, super, super land and, you know, went up.

It’s just him in this really nice house. But it’s not overly ostentatious for a guy with half a billion dollars walk down. And usually, as you guys well know, you meet someone famous and they tend to be smaller. And he’s my height and he’s very congenial and I can’t do a Keanu. And he’s just like Derek Kolstad like Keanu Reeves, you know? And the thing that hit me is, as I’m walking past his office, I s**t you not he had 300 scripts on his desk because he loves what he does. He reads all the time. And I’m not pandering when I say when you get his notes, they’re not just for his character, it’s for the story. He loves it. But I just kind of it kind of hit me that this is the one we’re meeting on. You know? And so he and I worked on the screenplay for four or five, six long weekends in a row. And during that time, I got I got I tell this story way too much, but I love it. There was a knock on his door, but he’s got like one of those little two ways and he’s like, hello? This woman says, hi, my name’s Christina. I’m on a road trip from Chicago with my family. We’re just really huge fans. Can you ask him some questions? He’s like, okay, we go out to his driveway. There’s a minivan with a family of five from Chicago. Christina’s a sophomore High School. And Keanu Reeves walks out there like, holy s**t. It worked. And then they talk for a little while and they ask him questions. And he was the sweetest thing in the world. And of course, then being Midwesterner, we’re like, oh, don’t bother you. And then we went back and we sat down. I was just like, we’ve made it. You know, this is pretty cool. But Chad and Dave came about because Chad was Keanu’s stunt double on The Matrix. And once you get to know Chad and you watch The Matrix, I love that movie but now it takes you out of it because you’re like, okay. That’s Chad. That’s Chad. You know, but they’ve known each other for years and they’ve always been you know, Keanu was a huge tech guy. So he at any given time is over with the DIT and the lenses. And he loves that kind of stuff. So they just geeked out on that. And he was the biggest fan of them and they were the biggest fan of him. So that’s where it came about.

Eric Conner: It was the perfect marriage of material star and director, despite already having credits and attention. Derek Kolstad realized he needed to fully embrace his love of film in order to unleash John Wick.

Derek Kolstad: When I wrote John Wick, I was writing a love letter to the movies I loved. And I think a lot of times when it clicks for people, they dive back into the stream. Unintimidated by the movies that they wanted to be swimming with. You know, before that, I was writing smaller movies. I was writing monster movies. I love horror. But horror is a different beast. So is comedy, you know. But I think with John Wick, I suddenly can have people talking like Howard Hawks movies. I can have a guy like Winston Overtalking.

Clip: You stab the devil in the back and forced him back into the life that he had just left. You incinerated the priest’s temple. Burned to the ground. Now he’s free of the marker. What do you think he’ll do?

Derek Kolstad:  No one talks like that. It’s like a stage play. I can refer and I can build out and I can peel back the onion and I don’t need to explain everything. And yet as the writer, be satisfied with it and want to do more. So, John Wick was me just kind of suddenly going, I’m going to stop trying to be who I’m not and just fully f**king embrace just what I love.

Eric Conner: At first glance, the seedy underworld of the continental might seem like something out of like a James Bond movie know with high tech gadgets. But he is unapologetically low tech. Heck, even the phones are analog.

Derek Kolstad: One of the things we’ve always joked about is if you throw a tech in a movie, it’s comical 18 months after the fact. And so we love the idea of throwing in like. Of course, they use 50s era equipment because in this world it just makes sense. It’s reliable. They own the lines. No one can tap them know that kind of thing. No one would think to tap them. And you know, when you think of the suicide girls and guys and the look and feel of the world, a lot of that has to do with all of our love of the warriors, you know, where you have these various gangs and I’m sure you’ve all seen the movie. And I was like, how do you bring that in? But more grounded. Right. And then the other thing, too, is I grew up with Alistair MacLean and Dashiell Hammett and Agatha Christie and all this mystery action thriller writers. And then the movies, the 70s you talk about I bring up Three Days the Condor all the time because I think one of the greatest characters ever made was Max von Sidow’s Joubert in that movie because he’s this really calm, kind killer who is also the oracle and is also the chorus and the choir.

Clip: It’s quite restful. It’s almost peaceful. No need to believe in either side or any side. There is no courage. There’s only yourself. The belief is in your own precision.

Derek Kolstad: And so that’s where it kind of came about. And, you know, when you go down the rabbit hole of seeing an actor you really like then going into their filmography, you stumble upon movies like the outfit, where you’re like, what is this? You know, and then you track down the writers of those books and then you track down Spencer and suddenly you just keep going closer and closer to what I grew up with, which James Cagney in White Heat and all those classic gangster movies.

Eric Conner: In creating John Wick, Derek Kolstad wrote a movie that he, as an action fanboy himself, could fully geek out about, provided the directors took the ball and ran with it.

Derek Kolstad: I like writing screenplays with prose so that, you know, a lot of times it’s for the actors we know full well the actions could be different by the time it goes to production. But like in the first one, when you have the classic Red Circle action sequence, there’s a scene where John shoots a guy’s foot. The guy leans forward, and he shoots his head, and I’m the guy in the audience going, because I wrote that, you know, and so I wrote all these action sequences. And then John grabs the guy’s head, puts it on the table. Shoots him three times. I was like, oh, I didn’t write that, you know, but that’s where we could geek out. Because Chad and Dave, you know, they’ve got what we always call it the back pocket black book of action sequences and kills and stunts they’ve always wanted to do. And they threw everything they could at it.

Eric Conner: What makes the action scenes all the more impressive is you can tell Keanu is doing a lot of the stunt work himself. In fact, in Derek Kolstad’s next film, Nobody, Bob Odenkirk – yes, that Bob Odenkirk from Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul – is also going full Wick and getting in on the action.

Derek Kolstad: The think about Keanu is like, you know, and this one with Bob Odenkirk as well these guys train their asses off. They’re in the best shape of their lives at the end of day. And when you see them, you won’t recognize them just because it’s like you guys remember being in sports in high school even now, like your face droops and you know, you walk alongside some of them, you hear their knees, you hear their shoulders, but they’re just in heaven. And yet the only way you can get those long takes is if they train and train and train and train. And when Keanu and when Odenkirk train, it’s judo, it’s jujitsu. It’s getting your ass handed to you so that the number of times that they’re thrown through a plate glass window and it’s them or the way that, you know, Keanu describes is like he walks out the car, hits the stunt double, but it’s him that goes rolling to his feet. He’s like that’s still like, you know, you go do it Kolstad. I’m like, no, I don’t own a piece of this, you know?

Eric Conner: Credit must also be given to the maestros of John Wick, David Leach, who co-directed the first one with former backlot guest Chad Stahelski who went on to direct both sequels. One particularly vivid and violent scene from John with three features knives being thrown around like they’re bullets from a machine gun.

Derek Kolstad: That’s all, Chad – that scene. And it’s my favorite scene in the movie. We had talked about it. And one things I loved about it is when they first start throwing the knives, they don’t have the gage. Right. So they’re hitting klunk klunk. And at the end, it’s like sink sink sink and you’re just like oh s**t, you know, but a lot of times the way. I’ll write an action scene is just make sure that the first couple of hits moves. I don’t use technical terms because everyone will glaze over. But if you take out a knee if you say the leg folds at an unnatural angle, if you say that they give as good as they get, you’ll come up with these phrases and you just kind of feel yourself. The last thing I want to do is read three pages of a fight. Just focus on the first couple of hits and those moves. Make sure that the environment is a character. Everyone likes it when a guy seems to be taking a hit and in reality is shifting so that the other guy can lose balance and his face on the table introduced the table earlier as a character in the scene and just make sure that it’s a dance and have fun. If you yourself get bored with the scene, you’re doing it wrong. And what I’ll say is then just cut it in half and see if it works. But a lot of the times just play like you’re playing in high school where it’s like. And then I flip you over and then I throw you and just have fun. You know, if you’re not enjoying that aspect, I mean, come on. Like most of my rewrite work is dialog at certain point. But when people are like, OK, we need a car chase scene I’m like f**k yeah, you know.

Eric Conner: All of this action might have even made Keanu Reeves a little bit bloodthirsty.

Derek Kolstad: He’s also those guys that like more like I remember after the first table read, I think in the first draft there was 13 kills. And then by the time we got to shooting, there’s 88 or something. And we had this table read. And it’s so funny because they hire a voice actor to read the script and he’s like nine pages of action. Certain point where I was laughing at the end, someone said, man that’s really, really violent and Keanu goes but it could have been so much more. And he got two and three. So, you know.

Eric Conner: Keanu Reeves is no stranger to massive franchises. But unlike the CGI fest, that was The Matrix, the success of John Wick rest firmly on his athletic shoulders after 30 plus years in the entertainment industry. This might be his finest work to date. Well, besides Bill and Ted, though Derek Kolstad had a much different voice in his head when he first wrote it.

Derek Kolstad: I grew up in an age when Beta and VHS was just coming out and my mom knew I loved movies. So whenever she got groceries, she’d pick one out of the bin. It was 50 cents because they were all off trademark, you know, at the time. And so I got to know old actors, very young. So when I write with actors in mind, they’re long dead. So that that’s Paul Newman, dude. You know, that was that was my Paul Newman in my head. But when we got to casting, the funny thing is there were four or five offers on John Wick. And we took the smallest one because they wanted to make it now. And as a writer who wanted a career, that’s what you go for one of the offers was, you know, they wanted to make a 60, 70 million dollar with Bruce Willis. But the reality with that is you’d make one and be done. And I think when Keanu came up, he wasn’t going to break the bank. We all knew full well that if we made a movie that was critically and financially OK, we had a franchise, but it had to be encapsulated in a good standing. So when Keanu Reeves came up, it was literally like me going, huh. Oh, yeah. You know, and honestly, the only reason he has a beard in that movie is he showed up and he had the beard. And when we were thinking of shaving him Chad and Dave were like, let’s do the beard. And we got all this s**t from all the various online communities. And then we saw the first trailer you like. Can you imagine a clean shaven John Wick? That’s is disturbing.

Eric Conner: Even if he didn’t have a beard. John Wick would have connected with his audience because we actually cared about him.

Derek Kolstad: It’s one of the reasons that those Korean thrillers that I love so much, like I wrote the remake for Man from Nowhere, which is one of my favorites, is you spend some time with the character, you love the character, you want the hero, you want the hero’s journey, you want to follow him. And at the end of your movie, right before credits you like, that was worth my time. I’m glad he got there. I want to see more, but also it’s like just the reality of like I love the hero. And I think a lot of the action movies we see, they focus on the action when. You go back to the movies that I grew up with and and love like die hard’s a great example you watch it as a kid. You know, there’s a great action movie. And at the end, you hear John McClane scream out his wife’s name as he’s literally bleeding out. You realize oh, this is a love story. You know, it’s a man who still loves his wife or even like I get s**t for this but I’m gonna say it, I love the first Kingsman. I think it’s a fun f**kin movie, but the best scene in that entire movie is when Eggsy is across from Michael Caine. He says the line. I’d rather be with Harry and I get goose bumps every time. Because in that moment you realize it’s a father son movie. And I think that’s why a good movie, regardless of genre, is a good movie is it comes down to character and the relationships and you wanting to be a part of that character’s life.

Eric Conner: John Wick is a character that, like the legend of Baba Yaga, only gets bigger with time and sequels with the promise of a fourth movie and a TV show focused on the Continental. We are just beginning to see how far the Wick-verse will expand.

Derek Kolstad: You know, it’s funny because like with the television show, which, you know, that’s Lionsgate’s baby not our I.P. and the video games and stuff. I do what I can. But I think with John Wick especially is created it. Nurtured it. I laid the foundation. But when you come to the various other splinters, I’m encouraging certain things. But I’m also off kind of focusing on building out other franchises and foundations that in a perfect world come the fourth iteration of that, those worlds combine because I hate the word canon. I don’t think anything should be canonical. You know, I know I’m in the Star Wars, MCU of it all, but I don’t want to see prequels, you know. In fact, the original iteration of John Wick 2, was a surprise prequel. The original script was the last act was the impossible task. And you realize, oh s**t, he was doing this all to get out. Right. And then we realized we were just being too witty. It just wouldn’t work, you know. But in regards to that, that universe, that kingdom, when you got a like a cornerstone, like, you know, Winston and Lance Reddick is just a Joy and Keanu and all that kind of stuff. I’ll be a part of that in a certain respect. And I wish the best man, because the whole thing, too, is, you know, I played Han Solo and Chewbacca and the sandbox. I didn’t want George Lucas to show up and go you’re doing it wrong, you know. So, like, I just want people to play, you know.

Eric Conner: The expansion of John Wick is all the more impressive when you consider that first one was basically a lavish and bloody indie film.

Derek Kolstad: So John Wick one, we were all in the trenches together. It was an independent. It was financed out of 15 different pools. And yet on the last day of shooting, once we’d wrapped the movie was in the black. And then they sold it to Lionsgate and it did what it did. And it was really the home video side of things that wanted a second one. Second one is the hardest, most difficult thing I’ve ever done. And I would never do it again, ever. Part of the reason was at that point, you’re part of a success. And suddenly the studio was more invested and they were invested in a time when they needed it. And suddenly the people, the core group of people that I was dealing with in the notes were backed up by 15, 20 execs and people where it got to the point, like, I don’t know who this is, you know. And then the third one was really me recognizing oh this is the devil I know. You know, John went to a crawl in the bottle a bit and I crawled out. Sounds very afterschool special. But to be honest, at a certain point, it goes back to why I wrote John Wick in the first place. One of the things that saved me is in the middle of John Wick 2 and this is a weird thing to say is the trailer for Mad Max Fury Road came out, and every night I would stand in front of my TV with that. That’s the best trailer I’ve ever seen with that music. I just stand in front of the TV and I feel like that 11 year old who snuck into an R-rated movie just going oh. And honestly, it was my love of movies that got me into it and my love of movies got me out of it. But, you know, married well, friends, well, family. Well, and I think the other thing, too, is regardless of who you are, what you want to do every day. I write one new page, no matter like I think I have right now. I have 21 projects in various states of play. I still spend at least one page a night spec. Or if you’ve had a terrible day, just f**kin write fading. It’s the greatest feel in the world. You know?

Eric Conner: That feels like pitch-perfect advice for all you artists out there. We want to thank Derek Kolstad for bringing John Wick into the world and continuing to get a new depths with the character. And of course, thanks to all of you for listening. This episode was based on the Q&A moderated by Tova Laiter to watch the full interview or to see our other Q&A’s.

Check out our YouTube channel at YouTube.com/NewYorkFilmAcademy. This episode was written by me, Eric Conner. Edited and mixed by Kristian Heydon. Our creative directors David Andrew Nelson who also produced this episode with Kristian Heydon and Myself. Executive produced by Tova Laiter, Jean Sherlock and Dan Mackler. To learn more about our programs. Check us out at NYFA.edu. Be sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen. See you next time.