Transcript
Eric: I’m Eric Conner senior instructor at New York Film Academy and today we bring you a woman who’s reinvented her career multiple times. Stephanie Allain, the producer behind “Black Snake Moan,” “Dear White People” and the Oscar-winning “Hustle and Flow.”
— Man ain’t like a dog. And when I say “man” I’m talking about “man” as in “mankind,” not “man” as in “men.”
Dear White people, the minimum requirement of black friends needed to not seem racist has just been raised to two.
There are two types of people, those that talk the talk and those that walk the walk.
Sorry, but your weed man, Tyrone, does not count.
Why is it that there is a gun shop on almost every corner in this community? – Why? – I’ll tell you why. For the same reason that there is a liquor store on almost every corner in the black community. Why? They want us to kill ourselves.
It ain’t the size of the dog in the fight, it the size of the fight in the dog.–
Eric: Miss Allain’s first love was writing though her life after school quickly put her on another path.
Stephanie Allain: I love writing. I mean that’s actually how I got into this business because I love stories. I mean I can remember as a young girl reading “The Godfather” and then going to see it at the El Rey you know reading “The Exorcist” and going to the Wiltern to see the movie. I was really into the relationship between the page and the screen. So, I studied English at school that was that was my thing with an emphasis in creative writing.
Then life caught up to me pretty quickly because I got pregnant right out of school and sort of became less interested in my own creative pursuits.
Eric: She was able to work her way up in the entertainment industry by reading – a lot.
Stephanie Allain: I think my biggest education in this business has been my years as a script reader I started at CAA as a book reader. I got that job when I was with a newborn because it was something I could do with the baby I could nurse and read.
Now like this – it’s like, the ultimate multitasking.
So. the process of reading educates you so much you guys should be reading every single thing and get your hands on and not only just reading them but writing your own coverage just for yourself. You know a paragraph of synopsis – first of all this is what you do: logline – make it real short and sweet, capture what it is, then do a little paragraph synopsis and then a paragraph of comments and notes that discipline. And I’m saying I did it when we had typewriters – I’m so old. I can’t believe it! I did it when we had typewriters at CAA. We would read the thing, and then we’d go sit at the typewriter, put the paper in and just start writing it. I mean the only thing you had was like, whiteout. You couldn’t even go back. That was my education really. And what happens is you start to assimilate the form that works so that by page 10 if nothing’s happening you’re like going why isn’t anything happening like your instinct just sort of kicks in. You know? At the end the first act you’re like well how come they’re not in the new world yet? You know, I’m saying like why -ha why are we still at the same place we’ve been at for the last half hour? I don’t get it. You start to know what should be happening and then you can sort of when you have that form down and then I’ve also done a lot of reading which I totally recommend. You know you have to read Ziegfeld you have to read Linda Seger.
You have to read all of those books you have to read save the cat you know you have to read all of them because they’re all saying the same thing number one and number two. It’s just a different way of saying it. So, whatever way you key into that’s it. You know story Robert McKee so heady. I mean I like to sort of just dream about it and then go, “OK it’s too much for me.” But those forms are your pillars really. So, first of all, you have to know all of the form, and you have to read a ton of stuff and then you have to write synopses and loglines and if you’d do that for a thousand scripts you will be a master because you will understand form so well that you will pick up a script and you’ll just know like so quickly whether this is this is somebody who is taking you on a ride; somebody who is confidently telling you a story or not and that’s how I read. And also the writing of the logline is so important because it’s actually teaching you how to pitch. That’s actually teaching you how to synopsize, how to encapsulate, how to pull the subject, the protagonist, how to pit that protagonist against an obstacle, and how to suggest a possible conclusion.
And that’s really when you’re in a room and you’re pitching, that’s what you’re telling the story about a woman who does this, and faces all this and you know, maybe or maybe doesn’t do it.
— South Central, Los Angeles a place where drugs, crime, and violence rule the streets.
Why is it that there is a gun shop on almost every corner in this community? – Why? – For the same reason that there is a liquor store on almost every corner in the black community. Why? They want us to kill ourselves.
We got a problem here?! We got a problem here?! – Can we have one night where there ain’t no fight and nobody gets shot? – Mama’s boy! —
Eric: Her career took a massive step forward when she discovered the script for “Boyz n the Hood” written by then 23-year-old John Singleton.
Stephanie Allain: When I found the script for “Boyz n the Hood” I had just been promoted out of the story department and my job was to read scripts. I was a CE and I had to go find material. This was so long ago that Warner Brothers and Columbia shared the lot right here. I’m very much dating myself but it’s a long time ago and Dawn Steel was the president, she hired me. I worked for her and Amy Pascal. At that point Peter Goober and John Peters – they came in and they wanted their own lot and they purchased that lot. They purchased the Thalberg building and we were in the process of moving. Actually, I was looking to replace myself in the story department and I heard about John. I was, of course, the only black person story department. I said I have to replace myself with a person of color. John was at school. He was a reader. He came in for the job and only wants to talk about the script he’d written “Boyz n the Hood.” So I eventually pried it from his grubby, little hands and read it in my office and just wept. And I literally knew at that moment what I was there to do. I was there to get that movie made and it was one of those epiphany kind of moments. But I knew that we were in the middle of a move. They were trying to make Ghostbusters 2. That was just like not at all on anybody’s radar. This little movie about South Central – I went to school in Inglewood, I knew these kids, I related to this script and I, I took it to every single executive one by one.
This is a good technique too, producers. You have to circle your wagons like going into a group without talking to every single person before you talk to the group is a bad idea. Talk to every single person separately tell them why this is important to you. Why, why you’re even bothering with it, why are you asking them to read something. So a lot of time is a big commitment. So know why, Number one, and then be able to articulate it because that’s what I did. I went to every single executive separately. And I said “Do this for me.” I have been reading all their scripts and giving them notes I said please read this from me I’ll tell you why it’s important. I did that for every single person. So by the time we got to the other lot everybody had read it and everybody had promised me that they got it and they were going to support me. And it was kind of crazy again at the studio. I was the only executive of color no maybe Kevin Jones was there but I could count them on one hand and guess what? I can still count them on one hand. That is 20 some years later. And the reason that we had a run at Columbia of John Singleton and Robert Rodriguez and Darnell Martin is because I was at the table. I was the one saying this is important to me. This is the movie we should make.
This is why I want to make this movie because I had I related to it I had sensitive eyes to the material. It wasn’t that the other people were racists or bad or anything they just didn’t have the sensitivity to that material they couldn’t express to each other why was passionately important to them because it just wasn’t. So basically, we turned to Frank Price and Frank Price is a guy who really doesn’t give a f***. He just says he wants to say. And he was like I think we should make it right there. And by this time I was sweating I was like I was so betrayed I was like oh my heart was beating fast you know sitting there holding myself back from arguing with them about it you know, because you can’t. You’ve got to put your stuff on the table and everybody gets to throw their stuff at it you know. But then he said he was going to do it so I was happy the beauty of boys was that they had to promote me to VP which I jumped over director of development right through VP because there was nobody to supervise it and you had to be a VP to supervise so I got this huge raise I got to VP and that was like “I have no idea what I’m doing.” I didn’t know and I had to fake it till I made it. That’s how I did it. That’s how I got through it. You know you have to be reasonably smart and you have to watch and listen. But then you just have to kind of fake it and then you learn just by doing it.
I did know that I had a job with a great producer so I put in with Steve Nikolaidis who had produced a lot of Rob Reiner’s movies and they loved each other right off. So then the studio was so busy they literally didn’t care. They’re like here’s 5 million dollars. Knock yourself out. We got movies to make. So that’s what we did. And I just sort of. As an executive you know executives a very different job from producer but I always knew I was more with the camp with but with the production I sort of knew that you know. So I stayed with them a lot and then you know, we made this great movie very very short amount of time. Everything happened so quickly I think we started shooting in August or prep in August and by May we were on the carpet at Cannes. That’s how crazy it was.
And then we got a 20-minute standing ovation at the premiere in France and that’s when we sort of knew wow this is something.
— In 1991 Columbia Pictures introduced you to an extraordinary new filmmaker and an unforgettable new vision. The director was 23-year-old John Singleton. The film, “Boyz n the Hood.” Now Columbia Pictures is proud to present a remarkable new film from another extraordinary new talent. The director is 23-year-old Robert Rodriguez. The film, “El Mariachi.”
Eric: The success of “Boyz n the Hood” gave her autonomy at Columbia Pictures and the credibility to release a seven thousand dollar movie, “El Mariachi” directed by Robert Rodriguez. Now since then, he has gone on to bigger projects Spy Kids,” “Sin City,” and Once Upon a Time in Mexico,” but at that time he was just a young man willing to sell his own blood literally, to finance his film.
Stephanie Allain: When I did “Boyz n the Hood” I was like a huge star after that because people were like Who is this girl and what is that movie and that movie made 65 million dollars off of five million dollar budget. And John was nominated for two Oscars and it was all over the news. Unfortunately, people died in the theater the first weekend. You know it was like there was just this whole sort of perfect storm that happened. Right. And because of it I got totally left alone at the studio. They’re like “Well, whatever you’re doing you’re doing it right. So just keep on doing it. You don’t have to do the last action hero anymore.” And I was so grateful. So basically I got a call from Robert Newman who is still his agent and he said I have a movie for you to watch. So I pop it in at home and we’re eating dinner and it’s so good I don’t even have to and I know a little Spanish. But it wasn’t that I just did the visual storytelling was so good. So I was like “Who is this guy? – It’s like Dude Robert. He does it all, he’s a cartoonist!” So, so I got I got on a plane. This is very important too, you gotta go where the artist is. That means so much to them. Like she came all this way. And I got down there and I met his mom and dad met his 12 siblings and I took them out for barbecue. And you know, I said, “Let’s do this. Come back to the studio.”
So he did and we remade that movie. Well actually first we finished it because it wasn’t even assembled really like – the film. We made it, we added like a million dollars – this was a seven thousand dollar movie that we added million dollars to and we released it. And then he wanted to remake it because that was the deal.
I said, “Come on back we’ll remake, it will be big, everybody will see it.” And then Peter Guber had the great idea – this is like – “No this’ll be the seven thousand dollar studio movie and we’re going to release it.” So that’s what we did. And then he basically wanted to do another movie it was “Desperado.” But there was no Mexican star. I’ll just be honest there was no Diego Luna. There was no Gael. There was only Antonio Banderas, who by the way is not Mexican he’s Spanish.
And so, he was like no, “It has to be Mexican!” And I was like, “Dude, there’s no Mexican it has to be Antonio.” And so I brought Antonio to the studio. That’s the good thing about being with the studio, the really cool things like do whatever you want to do. It’s like, you just call people up and go “I’m calling from Columbia Pictures and I’d like I’d like Mr Banderas to come to the studio for a private screening of you know, ‘Mariachi.'” And that’s what happened. I remember Antonio did not speak English. I was practicing a little bit of my Spanish and I showed them the movie. He was really impressed. I don’t know how – I basically I think what happened is they said, “Dude, we’re not making a movie unless you make it with Antonio.” So Robert was sort of forced to do it. And then of course now they’re muse and director.
Eric: After the bullets and mayhem of El Mariachi Miss Allain went on to the greener pastures of Jim Henson Studios, the home of Kermit the Frog. Get it? Greener? …because Kermit’s green…
Stephanie Allain: I left the studio to go run Jim Henson Pictures. That was a disaster. I made five movies. They were all disasters. My Muppet movie if you ever see it is terrible but it opens with Kermit singing “Brick House. Okay, so it’s an aberration. “Elmo in Grouchland” was my other big movie. I had kids running for the aisles during the preview screenings. It was horrifying.
They were running screaming trying to get out of there. It was so bad that we ended up putting Bert and Ernie in the movie freezing the movie and going. “Don’t worry kids everything’s going to be OK.”
— Wait, wait stop the film! Stop the film! Ernie! Ernie! – What’s the matter Bert? – What’s happening to Elmo? – Oh, don’t worry Bert! That’s just the way to get to Grouchland. – Oh. – Roll film. —
I hired Mandy Patinkin to be a bad guy. It was it was a total disaster and then you know. To make matters worse I fell in love with my boss and got fired. I mean it could not have been worse.
Eric: Miss Allain left Jim Henson Studios and made the bold move to start her own production company.
Stephanie Allain: Then I got off the wheel. Then I was out of the rat race of Hollywood because you know, once you’re in it you are in it and you’ve got to keep up. There’s too much information coming that you have to know about. You have to read the trades. You have to read the scripts. You have to see the movies. It’s a full-time job you know. So I got out and I was 40 years old. I had a 16-year-old, son a 6-year-old son. I was divorced by that time and living on my own and this fabulous house in Hancock Park and going, “What is going on?” So then I just started doing what I did before I started dancing. I was a dancer went to a Cal Arts grad school for dance. I was a writer so I started writing so I wrote. I danced every day oh my god it was in great shape. My son was 16 he fancied himself you know a dancer but I was like, “You’re no dancer. You’re no dancer till you can look at that combo and do it right then on the spot.” And I made dinner. I was such a good mom I was so good. And then I got really bored and I was like, “OK now what? What are going to do?” And then Irwin Staf called me and said, “Do you want to work at three arts?” And I was like “Sure!” That didn’t last either because I’m not like a management agent type.
— It’s like all my days I’ve been hearing this beat in my head. – Heavy percussion, repetitive hooks, sexually suggestive lyrics, man, it’s all blues, brother.
It ain’t the size of the dog in the fight, it the size of the fight in the dog.
We do what the f*** we gotta do man, by any means. Ain’t that right?! We take care of our s***. You think I like this s***?! You think I wanna spend the rest of my life pimping your pimpled country ass? —
Eric: When she came across the script for “Hustle and Flow” she immediately knew it had to be made. But despite being a script that excited pretty much everyone who read it, “Hustle and Flow” still had a long, arduous road to the screen.
Stephanie Allain: I found that script and I thought this is what I want to do. My contract was done and I said, “Yeah, I don’t want to do that I’m just going to figure out how to make this movie” and then that turned into four years of like pedaling around town. And I just I woke up one day and I was like, “I don’t need the house. It’s holding me back. You know I have to pay this mortgage. I’ve got kids going to NYU.” By this time I was like, I can’t do it. I’m single. It was a hard, hard time. And I just call my broker and I said, “sell the house.” Now, this is a really bad idea because it was when the house prices were just starting to really take off. But I had to divest. I knew it. I had to get rid of it. It sold in like two seconds. I didn’t have a place to live. That’s how fast it sold. So I went backwards. I went back to Park La Brea. You know? But the freedom – because what it enabled me to do. So I did make money on the house. I’m not dumb. I did make some money on the house and I said I’m going to take 250 (thousand) of it and make this movie. That was my plan. I was tired of waiting for “yes.” Nobody wanted to give me “yes.” And I wanted “yes” so I had to make “yes.” So I took the money, I called my friend John and I said, “look, I got the hottest script in town. You got to read it!” And he’s like, Ok, ok!” I gave it to him and months went by. I was like, “Ugh! Jesus, what am I doing? I’m sitting in Park La Brea. I got this bank account but no job, nothing to do”. And then he calls me. I remember it was Cinco de Mayo. He was on the set of “Fast and the Furious,” the version he did. And he said, “this shit is great!”
And I said, “Isn’t it great?! You finish it?” He was like, “nah, nah, nah, I haven’t finished it. But it’s great.” And that it was the kind of script when you started reading it you just got so excited and just like, I’m in the midst of greatness. And then I said, “well, finish it and then call me.” So now he goes, “come here. You have to come down here.”
I went down the Universal soundstage. Everybody had margaritas, and we just said, “look, here’s what we have to do. You have to make it ourselves and it’s going to be great.” He was like, “No, no, no, I’m making “Fast and the Furious” – it’s going to make all this money. Don’t worry. We got this. We got this.” And that’s when we peddled it back around. I must have gone to everybody five times before I showed it at Sundance. And he finally just wrote the check.
Eric: Though “Hustle and Flow” eventually earned him an Oscar nomination, Terrence Howard was initially reluctant to sign up for the part that would change his career.
Stephanie Allain: At the time Terrence was sort of known as “Q” from “The Best Man.” That was the most impactful role that he’d done and then he’d done a lot of little things but never really had his moment. And when we went to him we said to him is this all. Is this all there is. What do you see for yourself. You know he you have to have a dream. I mean this was really really true. And he fought us for a really long time because number one he did not like rap. He did not want to rap since it took so long to get it done. He wrote an album he wanted to be a folk singer.
So he wrote an album and he has a beautiful guitar player classic guitar player and singer and I don’t think he really wanted to be the pimp.
You know I don’t think any respecting black man wants to be the pimp.
You know when I did glory with Denzel Washington. He didn’t want to play a slave. Right. And brought him an Oscar and then brought to him.
Now that’s a whole nother conversation because that’s very interesting just in that statement that playing a pimp and playing a slave is what brought them there Oscar. I don’t even know what to say.
But I got a lot of flack for the pimps and hoes from black women in Hollywood. Well, there’s not that many black men but the five black women in Hollywood gave me tons of shit. But the reason I wanted to make that movie is because I really truly believe that if a pimp can be elevated through art then we all can.
Eric: Many in the industry questioned if writer-director was the right choice to capture the film’s reality.
Stephanie Allain: I think that I did get a little blowback on that. And I will say that it’s very important to me that the author of the story is authentic to the story. I’m very suspect of a white gaze going on to Black story black bodies. Not that it can’t be done but I definitely will double take but I flew down to Memphis to meet Craig and hang out with him and he was the real deal. You know this was not his neighborhood so to speak but these were his people. It was just a very diverse crowd that he hung with he knew 36 he knew juicy j. It got to me because he made a movie before this the movie before this was the poor and hungry and the poor and hungry played a lot of festivals and off of that movie. He got an agent and that agent knew me. And so the agent read the script called me up and said I want you to read the script and watch the movie.
I did the same thing John did. I was like halfway and I call them was like I was like I love this he said Well have you finished now. He said OK. So I finished. Because you know it’s it’s not.
Oh it all works out. I mean it does work out but it’s it’s a darker ending. And I felt that his compassion for those characters was very real. He lived a bit of a marginal life as he was trying to make this movie. I mean this movie is actually a sort of an incarnation of how they got the money together to make his movie. But yeah Craig is a real deal. And I would always check that out. I’m not going to say that you have to be black to direct a black movie because I don’t think you have to be white to direct a white movie. So but I do make sure that it’s an authentic voice.
And by that I mean somebody who’s very sensitive to the characters and story.
Eric: As a producer Miss Allain is particularly drawn to the passion that writer directors bring to the table.
Stephanie Allain: I really am attracted to writer directors because the one thing I learned at the studio is that those movies are made by a committee and that’s why they don’t seem that good. So that the movies that were made by one vision by one voice. They may be flawed but they are so much more interesting to me. I felt the humanity in them. And John really taught me this because when he showed up I tried to do the studio on him I was like we’ve got to change this. You know cops don’t eat doughnuts and you know this whole thing is like I will strangle you if you touch anything in this movie. And I was like OK.
And then I basically sort of indoctrinated me into being a writer directors producer which is to protect the vision and you either have to buy into it or you don’t. You can challenge for sure but it has to be challenged coming from a buy in you know. So it’s always starts with the script for me. I got to read a piece of material that makes me laugh or cry or or scared or something you know. And if it moves me and it’s always my gut I literally know my heart starts beating fast. It’s like love. I’m like oh my god this is so good. That’s how I feel. And if I feel that way I know I can go the distance on it as a producer you should not take anything on that you’re just OK about because you think it’s a good piece of business because you think it’d be good to attract some actors something it will never happen.
The only thing that can literally create something out of nothing which is what you doing in a movie you’re taking are taking ideas that are crystallized as a blueprint really on a page and then getting everybody to sort of have this mind meld on it. It’s crazy and it’s really difficult to do well because there’s no science to it. So you have to find material that you can stick with forever because sometimes that’s how long it takes you know you have to find something that means something to you. And so when I read something that someone else has poured their heart into I respond and then I meet the person and then I see if that person how that person is with me. You know if that person makes me wanna go knock down doors to make it happen then then I take it on. If that person irks me or feels entitled or doesn’t feel like there’s room to grow. You know the writer directors that I and I’ve done a lot of first time writing directors and it’s is super fun because they don’t know anything and so like the dream is so big you know. And I love that beginner’s mind because it’s just malleable but focused. So I look for that. That’s what I look for. I look for something that turns me on and then I meet the person and see if it’s embodied in that person. Because you spend a lot of time with these people and you have to ask for money.
You have to ask for favors to stand in the middle of the night at 4:00 in the morning it’s cold or it’s hot or whatever. It’s a relationship you know.
So I just look for the good material and then the cool people that wrote it.
Eric: When asked about developing more material from minority filmmakers Miss Allain reminded our students to support the art they want to see created.
Stephanie Allain: So here’s the thing what the one thing that will create momentum is if we patronize our own stuff because that’s the first step is to really be proficient on what is out there that African-American producers writers directors actors are doing. Look I’m a producer. Which means I’m an optimist. I just see that the world is changing. I know that the census is telling us that more brown babies are born every day than white babies. That’s the reality. You know there’s got to be entertainment for all these folks coming you know. In the catbird seat.
You know. So I think that yeah just do your thing you know I mean what is the story that you want to tell.
That’s what you got to do just find the story that you are uniquely qualified to tell.
Eric: Instead of pursuing movies that she thinks the marketplace wants Miss Allain prefers to follow her own sensibilities.
Stephanie Allain: When I say trust your gut I trust that as a human being I respond to emotions so I know if a piece of material is triggering my emotions that I’m going to guess if I can produce the best version of that material that it’s going to strike a lot of other people’s emotions. I don’t look for things I think other people are going to want. I look for things that I’m going to want. That’s the only gut I got. I think trying to second guess the market place or or do things that the masses will want never work out never work out for you. You just bring your own to it and the way to do that is to really think about who you are. I think so much you know we’re so distracted. I mean it’s just so so upsetting. You know I love my iPhone. I love my Mac Book but god I should throw them as far away as possible. You know it’s created this alone. Togetherness right. People don’t just sit alone without their phones you know they got gotta have it. It’s crazy. And so if you sat alone without your phone and you remembered who you were at 8 years old who you were intrinsically not who you were trying to be. But what do you know about yourself. Like I knew what I was really young that I was smart. I just knew it that was a truth about me. What do you know about yourself at that age.
Before you sort of grew into who you are now and if you can remember who you were who you are and you bring that to everything you do there will be an authenticity to you that will be irresistible. People will just be like god I don’t know what. It is but I really like her and you will be attracting the kind of people that you’re connecting with because if you’re being authentic people will be like ooh you’re not my people or they’re going to be like you are my people it’s going to be really clear but if you’re sort of hiding behind something else than other people doing that then you never really get clarity. So what you guys can all do is to bring to the situation who you really are unabashedly even if its if its if its like some people you just know like and you give away stuff. You’re just generous. That’s who you are intrinsically then be that then practice that it’s the quickest way to attain what you want and to be enlightened to the fact that we’re just all here for such a short time and we get caught up in so much negativity that it prevents us from really achieving all all that we can achieve all that we dream that we want.
Eric: Despite what must be nonstop work as a producer Miss Allain still finds time to lead organizations focused on discovering new talent.
I also run the L.A. Film Festival and my goal is to make it the most diverse mainstream festival in the world and I think I can do that here in L.A. and it’s also the exhibition arm of film independent film independent. Is that 30 year old arts organization that really supports artists who are diverse and innovative and have a unique point of view and we also produce the spirit awards. The film festival film independent at LACMA and a host of programs throughout the year. So if you don’t know about it and you should know if you don’t if you’re not a member you should become a member and get all the movies that are nominated for Spirit Awards in your mailbox.
It’s like a precursor to when you’re in the academy and you get all the stuff but you get your own little section at this level and it’s great.
Eric: Stephanie Allain recommends that any producer looking to develop material should literally put themselves in the writers shoes.
Stephanie Allain: I don’t care if you’re a screenwriter or not write one script just write one script you can come up with an idea and you can force yourself to sit in that seat and until you have 110 pages and that exercise will blow your mind. Because first of all it will give you incredible empathy for any single writer.
And second of all it will give you incredible confidence as a writer. Because guess what. We all write. This is a skill that we all have. Some people just exercise it more than others.
Eric: Thank you to Stephanie Allain for speaking to our students and to all of you for listening. This episode was written by me. Eric Cantor based on the guest speaker series produced and moderated by Tova Leiter. The episode was edited and mixed by Kristian Hayden produced by David Andrew Nelson Kristian Hayden and myself executive produced by Jean Sherlock. Dan Mackler and Tova Laiter associate produced by Vinnie Sisson. Special thanks to Lydia Cedrone for co moderating and to Aeriel Segard Robert Kasnahan Sajja Johnson and the entire staff and crew who made this possible to learn more about our programs. Check us out at nyfa.edu. Be sure to subscribe and leave us a review on Apple podcasts. See you next time and remember it’s hard out here for a pimp.
